John Carlos Frey - Investigating Border Patrol, Immigration Policy, and Why Immigrants Risk It All

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 Okay, World of Blazers, thank you for coming back to another episode. I have an amazing guest. I'm very glad you took the time to be here.

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 This is John Carlos Frey. Is that correct? Did I pronounce your last name correctly?

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 Yeah.

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 I was hoping I did. I don't want to botch that. Sorry.

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 But yeah, you're a six-time Emmy Award-winning journalist. You come with a lot of clout. Investigative journalist as well.

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 You do documentaries. You have a podcast, The Raid.

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 And I was interested to talk to you. At first, I think your representatives thought I might have been a little too, like, mag or whatever.

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 But if anybody's watched my shows, most of my people know I talk to everybody. I want to get all sides.

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 I want to hear everyone's stories because the thing I see lacking most these days is people don't talk to each other.

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 And so I want to hear what you have to say on everything that's happening based on your work.

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 You spent a lot of time investigating the border, investigating what migrants go through.

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 And you have firsthand experience, I believe, from your mother. Is that correct?

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 Yeah. I witnessed my mother get deported in front of me. And she was here in the country legally. She had a green card.

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 She was a legal U.S. resident and didn't have her paperwork on her at the time.

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 I mean, this is years ago. We see that happening now quite a bit with the immigration raids.

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 But back then, when I was a kid, she didn't have her passport with her. She didn't have her documents with her.

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 She didn't have the proper paperwork that would have would have let a border patrol agent know that she was in the country legally.

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 And she was handcuffed in the back of a patrol car and taken across the border back to Mexico,

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 even though she had four U.S. citizen children, a U.S. citizen husband, and had been in the country legally for 20 years.

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 So that that has happened to me as a kid.

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 Was that part of your motivation and going down this road like all those years?

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 Did you hold on to that and that always in the back of your mind motivates you to look into these issues when it's relating to the border?

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 You know, if I'm going to be honest with you, George, I would say yes and no, because when I was a kid, I did not want to be Mexican.

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 I did not want to be of Mexican descent. My last name is Frey, F-R-E-Y.

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 My first name is John, and I went by John Frey. I dropped the Carlos.

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 I wanted to be white. I wanted to fit in with the kids that I went to school with.

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 I saw Mexican kids being discriminated against, being laughed at, being ridiculed.

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 And I tried to pass, you know. So for a long time, I did not claim Latino heritage at all.

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 When I grew up, became an adult and became a man, that all changed.

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 So I would say yes, that what happened to my mother certainly informed me as a journalist.

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 But also I grew up with an eye shot of the U.S.-Mexico border.

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 The cat and mouse game of border patrol agents chasing migrants that were crossing the U.S.-Mexico border illegally,

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 in the cover of darkness, running through shrubs, people's backyards, chased by border patrol agents, helicopters.

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 That whole cat and mouse game was a part of my upbringing.

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 I even remember as a boy playing army with the border patrol helicopter,

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 pretending to be a migrant, throwing up dust in an open field, trying to catch the border patrol helicopter spotlight.

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 You know, so I didn't know that not all the kids were growing up this way.

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 I thought that this was a normal way to grow up.

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 So this idea of migration and arresting and all of that is just just in my blood.

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 Understood.

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 So let's talk about your work, because you've been investigating this topic, these things,

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 and actually talking to migrants themselves for, I mean, what, over 20 years, right?

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 OK, so I want to talk about your findings, because I think we live in a world of basically everything is so hyper,

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 so max, right, in terms of the media, and we're only hearing half the story half the time,

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 while maybe a quarter of the time.

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 And there's always a lot left out.

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 There's a lot of bias, for example, right?

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 So you don't you don't get to hear the whole story.

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 I use certain outlets that will give you like the left center and right so I can get all sides.

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 But most people never hear that.

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 So what I'm hoping in this conversation that you're able to, at least from my audience or anybody else will listen to this,

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 is expose people to the, well, basically just just hearing things that's outside of the damn bubble that they create for themselves,

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 like too many people live in an echo chamber.

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 And that's, I think, what's keeping us where we are right now in America.

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 So hopefully can shed light on these things.

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 So your work in which you did investigating the border, like what did you find?

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 Because from what I've heard from some of your interviews, by the way, I know you've mentioned how the border patrol themselves,

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 they're kind of unruly at times, or they seem like, you know,

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 I heard your story about how there were shooting across the border right at actual Mexicans in Mexico.

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 And, you know, you have other stories that you've told where it's just like, you know, people getting ripped out of their cars, etc.

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 And so it's like, can you elaborate on that and just let people know what does happen?

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 Because there is a human side to this, and I'm always trying to figure out, well,

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 how do we enforce our border policies, enforce the law and our sovereignty,

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 but at the same time see the humanity in people themselves and not just treat them as, you know,

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 just garbage for people that we can just throw away and toss aside?

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 Yeah, it's a really complex question.

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 I'm glad you asked it, but I mean, it's, you know, I want to go through like 25 parts of it because

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 it's not just one size fits all, and I'm not going to do that to your listeners.

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 I'm not going to bore them with you, but I am a firm believer in border security.

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 I'm a believer that there is a need for people to come across with some form of documentation

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 so that we know who's coming to come through possibly a port of entry

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 where you have to show your ID before you get into the United States,

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 that you legally have the right to be here.

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 But by the same token, we allow people to come by large numbers without proper documentation.

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 There is a large pull in the United States for people who are south of the border

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 to work in our fields, to work in our restaurants, to work in construction sites,

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 and we all kind of pretend that it doesn't happen.

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 As long as you can get across that maze, get over the fence, under the fence,

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 where there isn't a fence, as long as you can go through that maze, we'll get you a job.

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 We'll make sure that you work in our fields for six, seven bucks an hour.

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 So there's this whole kind of underground economy that pretends we all love border security,

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 but at the same time, we would really love somebody without papers to come pick our vegetables

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 and not pay you anything and not give you any rights.

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 So there's that part of it.

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 In addition to that, there's the U.S. Border Patrol who manages the U.S.-Mexico border.

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 It used to be before Trump 2.0 that Border Patrol only patrolled the border.

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 They only had a jurisdiction 70 miles north of the physical borderline itself.

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 We can get into the reasons why that's not happening today and why we see them in Minneapolis,

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 but for the most part, it was a force that is paramilitary.

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 This is their own description.

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 They are trained as military personnel.

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 They have a rank structure just like U.S. military.

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 They are armed like U.S. military.

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 There are Black Hawk helicopters that fly along the U.S.-Mexico border.

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 There are drones.

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 There are night vision capability.

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 There are sensors all over the place.

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 So it's kind of like a war zone along the U.S.-Mexico border,

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 and that has amplified since 9-11, and understandably so.

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 The Border Patrol posture changed after 9-11 to become more of an anti-terrorism group.

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 So they're trained to see migrant, brown skin, Spanish-speaking,

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 foreign-language-speaking person as the threat, as the enemy,

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 and they will shoot first and ask questions later.

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 That is their footing.

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 That is their training.

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 That is how they operate.

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 They want to pose a viable threat, mostly to deter people from coming.

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 If a migrant comes up to the border and sees Humvees and helicopters

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 and armed-to-the-teeth agents, maybe they're going to think twice about coming.

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 So that's more of a deterrent strategy that we have there.

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 But by the same token, people get injured.

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 People get injured a lot.

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 Most Border Patrol agents on patrol are by themselves.

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 They do not have a buddy alongside them.

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 They are patrolling the border usually in a 20-30 mile stretch on their own.

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 So if they happen to fire their weapon, if they happen to kill somebody,

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 God forbid, it's not investigated for the most part.

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 There have been numerous shootings, killings, sometimes, as you mentioned,

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 firing their weapons across the border into Mexico,

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 sometimes hitting people, killing people.

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 To date, the U.S. Border Patrol itself is about 100 years old in its establishment.

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 There's not been one agent who's ever been arrested

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 and convicted of firing their weapon in a negative bad way

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 or killing somebody by accident or murdering somebody.

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 It's never happened.

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 So every time they fire their weapon,

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 it's been supported by the U.S. Border Patrol itself.

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 They investigate themselves and they adjudicate their own shootings,

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 very much like what happened to Renee Good and what happened to Alex Credit.

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 There isn't an investigation, at least from the Department of Homeland Security,

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 into whether or not that was a viable shoot,

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 whether or not they should have fired their weapons.

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 That's not even being investigated.

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 And that happens along the border all the time.

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 I could go on for your entire podcast, but I'll stop there.

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 I mean, you can take us wherever you like, John.

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 I'm open to discussion, and of course, I'll have some data as well.

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 But whatever I say is not just to oppose you, by the way.

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 It's just to have the conversation.

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 So I just hope that I'm going to set that precedent.

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 And I agree with you what happened with the whole thing in Minnesota.

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 Like we're talking about Renee Good.

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 We're talking about Alex Pretty.

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 So first off, Renee Good, everyone can see that a certain way,

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 depending on how you saw the angle of the cameras.

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 Regardless, should she have been killed?

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 No, I don't think so.

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 But we can't ignore that the vehicle can be seen as a weapon.

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 But at the same time, none of us were in that guy's shoes.

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 We have no idea of the reaction time or thing that he had to go through.

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 Alex Pretty, that was an entirely different story.

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 There was no explaining away.

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 There was no explaining away.

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 They shot him.

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 And they even asked where the gun was.

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 There was a video out where they were asking,

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 where the hell is the gun at?

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 Because the other agent already took it, walked off with it.

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 The communication wasn't there.

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 There was a huge breakdown in how they even handled that situation.

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 It was just bad training all the way around.

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 Those were Border Patrol agents.

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 Those were not ICE agents.

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 Those were Border Patrol.

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 Those were the paramilitary that fired their weapons first.

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 My beef with the whole thing.

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 I wasn't there.

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 I don't know what video angles that everybody is seeing.

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 There isn't an investigation.

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 It's a closed case.

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 I agree. I agree with you.

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 And honestly, I've said this,

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 and I think it was crazy how they had Bovino step down, put Holman in.

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 But then Kristi Noem just got away with,

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 I mean, her initial statement was automatically defending her people

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 instead of saying, we're going to do an investigation.

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 And we're not going to say anything until that's over.

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 Basically, we'll figure out what to do.

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 They should have suspended everybody,

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 put them on her investigation, then move from there.

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 But they didn't.

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 And I'm surprised she's still where she is.

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 Personally, I thought she should have been demoted or removed.

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 That's my opinion.

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 But that's the way I see it.

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 So yeah, I agree with you.

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 It's sad. It is very sad how things are handled.

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 So let's talk about the feeling anyway that Border Patrol,

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 okay, so with everything that she investigated,

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 is it necessarily the view that it is Border Patrol specifically targeting

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 brown people or is it the sentiment that the people in the US in general

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 are just targeting a brown people?

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 I think it might be a little bit of both.

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 Well, who do you go after?

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 Let's say right now there's a quota to grab as many undocumented people

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 in the United States and deport them.

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 I think there is a quota.

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 I think they have a number and a target that they want to reach.

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 I'm probably, if I'm a US Border Patrol agent,

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 I'm probably going to want to grab brown people

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 who speak Spanish who work at a car wash.

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 Chances are pretty good that those people might not be in the country legally.

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 So I'm going to do a dragnet.

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 I'm just going to scoop people up.

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 And then I'll go ahead and select them out later

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 and see which ones are here legally and which ones are not.

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 So that is the targeting that's happening.

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 They're going to Home Depots where people, day laborers hang out.

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 They're going to car washes.

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 They're going to neighborhoods for the most part.

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 There was a study done in LA County, which is where I live,

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 where 70% of the neighborhoods that were hit by ice

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 during the immigration raids that were happening in LA were brown.

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 We're brown communities.

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 We're Spanish-speaking communities.

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 That kind of makes sense.

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 The Supreme Court has given them a little bit of cover.

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 They're doing their job.

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 It's the same thing at the border.

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 If I'm in and around near a border fence

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00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:55.540
 right at the borderline of the US-Mexico border

222
00:12:55.540 --> 00:12:58.200
 and the Border Patrol agent hears me speaking English,

223
00:12:58.560 --> 00:12:59.740
 I'm not going to be bothered.

224
00:13:00.140 --> 00:13:01.660
 I'm just not going to be targeted.

225
00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.020
 They're going to let people who are speaking English,

226
00:13:04.140 --> 00:13:05.940
 who look American, who look white,

227
00:13:06.220 --> 00:13:07.900
 they're going to let them go by a checkpoint.

228
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:09.660
 There are checkpoints all along the border

229
00:13:09.660 --> 00:13:11.660
 when you're driving on the roads near the border

230
00:13:11.660 --> 00:13:13.720
 to make sure you're not harboring anybody

231
00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:15.340
 or carrying any contraband.

232
00:13:15.760 --> 00:13:19.020
 The brown-speaking people with the Mexican license plates,

233
00:13:19.040 --> 00:13:20.620
 even though they might be in the US legally,

234
00:13:20.780 --> 00:13:22.220
 are probably going to be targeted.

235
00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.200
 That is part of their protocol.

236
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:25.500
 That is part of their training.

237
00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:26.400
 Kristi Noem said that.

238
00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:27.920
 That is part of their training

239
00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:30.220
 to single out people they suspect

240
00:13:30.220 --> 00:13:31.720
 are in the country illegally.

241
00:13:32.620 --> 00:13:34.140
 I would choose a brown person.

242
00:13:34.540 --> 00:13:36.160
 I mean, it's logical.

243
00:13:36.680 --> 00:13:38.540
 It's logical, but that is also,

244
00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:40.280
 when it comes to police work,

245
00:13:40.680 --> 00:13:42.240
 it's also racial profiling

246
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.860
 because there are a lot of people

247
00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:46.320
 who have been wrapped up who are here legally.

248
00:13:46.540 --> 00:13:48.060
 Just because I have brown skin

249
00:13:48.060 --> 00:13:50.740
 doesn't necessarily mean that I'm in the country illegally.

250
00:13:51.100 --> 00:13:52.880
 So you have that problem as well.

251
00:13:53.060 --> 00:13:54.260
 Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all.

252
00:13:54.540 --> 00:13:56.620
 I have friends that are all Mexican.

253
00:13:56.820 --> 00:13:58.460
 Look, I mean, you all know my background.

254
00:13:58.680 --> 00:14:00.340
 I was the minority white guy

255
00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:02.320
 in Mexican neighborhoods, to be honest.

256
00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:03.900
 I was the guy that was always jumped

257
00:14:03.900 --> 00:14:05.020
 and beaten and everything else.

258
00:14:05.040 --> 00:14:08.100
 So I was always called the asshole white kid,

259
00:14:08.380 --> 00:14:10.200
 the gringo, all that shit.

260
00:14:10.520 --> 00:14:11.600
 So I grew up like that.

261
00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:13.720
 I was the one getting jumped by the gangs.

262
00:14:14.400 --> 00:14:16.080
 And so that was my background.

263
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:16.840
 And that's how I grew up.

264
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:18.560
 But my friends are Mexican.

265
00:14:18.640 --> 00:14:19.860
 I know a lot of people from Mexico.

266
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:21.140
 One of my very good friends,

267
00:14:21.180 --> 00:14:22.500
 he's still trying to get his wife over here.

268
00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:24.280
 He went through the system, did everything the right way.

269
00:14:24.340 --> 00:14:25.340
 His uncle brought him over.

270
00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:27.120
 He has a computer science degree,

271
00:14:27.500 --> 00:14:28.380
 has a great job.

272
00:14:28.520 --> 00:14:29.380
 His wife's still in Mexico.

273
00:14:29.420 --> 00:14:30.180
 He's going through the process

274
00:14:30.180 --> 00:14:31.380
 trying to get her over here legally.

275
00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:33.420
 I think they fast-tracked.

276
00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:34.540
 Hopefully she'll be here soon.

277
00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:36.340
 So I've seen those sides.

278
00:14:36.460 --> 00:14:37.840
 I've heard the stories also from people

279
00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:39.380
 who are from Mexico and have families

280
00:14:39.380 --> 00:14:40.600
 that have immigrated here.

281
00:14:41.260 --> 00:14:43.240
 All my father's side, they're Portuguese.

282
00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:46.120
 They all came here from the Azores.

283
00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:48.000
 So it's like,

284
00:14:49.400 --> 00:14:51.520
 I have a little bit of an idea.

285
00:14:51.740 --> 00:14:53.040
 I'm not necessarily a brown,

286
00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:54.820
 so I guess I'm not targeted every day.

287
00:14:55.020 --> 00:14:57.120
 But I went through my side of things.

288
00:14:57.460 --> 00:14:58.740
 And I think it's important for me to say that

289
00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:00.200
 because a lot of people will think that,

290
00:15:00.260 --> 00:15:01.360
 well, you can just throw a blanket out there

291
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:02.700
 and make a statement and say,

292
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.160
 white people hate brown people and we're targeting brown people

293
00:15:05.160 --> 00:15:06.980
 and all of that. And that's not really the case.

294
00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:08.780
 And everybody that I know in my circle,

295
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.100
 honestly, even conservatives, to be honest,

296
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:12.420
 we don't hate immigrants.

297
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.620
 We just want them to come through the right way.

298
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.100
 But, but, but,

299
00:15:17.300 --> 00:15:18.960
 I know you probably have something to say about that,

300
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.360
 but let me circle back.

301
00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:23.560
 Let me go ahead

302
00:15:24.540 --> 00:15:25.740
 and touch on something

303
00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:26.780
 that I heard you say

304
00:15:26.780 --> 00:15:28.740
 on an interview.

305
00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:30.540
 And, you know,

306
00:15:30.780 --> 00:15:32.820
 it kind of parallels to what I'm talking about.

307
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:34.800
 How it's

308
00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:36.400
 kind of lost my train of thought slightly there,

309
00:15:36.400 --> 00:15:38.900
 but it's basically parallels to what I was just

310
00:15:38.900 --> 00:15:40.840
 saying about how, you know, people are

311
00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:42.620
 being targeted for their skin color.

312
00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:45.060
 Right? I think

313
00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:46.940
 it's wrong that we

314
00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:48.800
 see someone who's from

315
00:15:48.800 --> 00:15:50.800
 Mexico, for example, and just automatically

316
00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:52.560
 think they're just taking advantage of the system.

317
00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.440
 They're dirty and they're lazy when that's never

318
00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:56.920
 my experience. My experiences are

319
00:15:56.920 --> 00:15:58.900
 tough, hardworking. I mean, there's something

320
00:15:58.900 --> 00:16:00.440
 in the DNA, because I'll tell you what,

321
00:16:01.040 --> 00:16:03.060
 they're definitely tough as they can be, and they definitely

322
00:16:03.060 --> 00:16:04.880
 put the work in to try to succeed

323
00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:06.840
 and survive. And the older

324
00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:08.840
 generations, from what I deal with, is

325
00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:11.040
 they're always trying to make sure that their sons and their daughters don't have

326
00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:12.880
 to go through what they went through. So they're trying to make

327
00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:14.860
 them, you know, come up, get educated, and move

328
00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:16.420
 on, and make a good life for themselves.

329
00:16:17.140 --> 00:16:18.940
 But again, where I'm going with

330
00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:21.040
 this is, I think

331
00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:22.920
 that the targeting is there because the

332
00:16:22.920 --> 00:16:24.980
 percentages is, what is it,

333
00:16:25.900 --> 00:16:27.220
 about over 40 percent,

334
00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:29.140
 actually, I think I pulled it off, if you don't mind me saying,

335
00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:30.980
 yeah, between 30 to 40 percent

336
00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:33.200
 of immigrants

337
00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:34.640
 come from Mexico.

338
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:37.240
 It's the largest source,

339
00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:39.240
 right? Yeah, so it's easy to

340
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:40.820
 target brown people, I guess is what I'm saying.

341
00:16:40.820 --> 00:16:42.840
 I'm not making an excuse, I'm just saying it's

342
00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:44.860
 just by that number. No, I get it.

343
00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:46.920
 I get it. If I were a board patrol agent,

344
00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:48.500
 I would probably do the same thing, because

345
00:16:48.500 --> 00:16:50.960
 it's my training. That's what I'm told

346
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:52.960
 to do. I'm told

347
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:54.680
 to suspect the Spanish speaker.

348
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.160
 I am taught to suspect people

349
00:16:57.160 --> 00:16:59.220
 in particular jobs,

350
00:16:59.920 --> 00:17:01.200
 dishwashers at a restaurant,

351
00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:03.300
 construction workers. I saw a video

352
00:17:03.300 --> 00:17:05.200
 clip the other day of a border patrol agent

353
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:06.599
 jumping on a roof

354
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:09.140
 to get a brown Spanish speaking guy who was

355
00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:11.140
 doing some roofing work, and the guys

356
00:17:11.140 --> 00:17:13.319
 jumping from roof to roof on the houses,

357
00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:15.099
 and he nabbed them, you know?

358
00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:17.160
 But he wasn't going for the guys that were on the

359
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:19.160
 ground that didn't look like the guy

360
00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:21.119
 that was on the roof. That's part

361
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.220
 of their training. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

362
00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:25.260
 I'm just saying this is what they get

363
00:17:25.260 --> 00:17:27.140
 in the academy. This is how

364
00:17:27.140 --> 00:17:29.500
 they are trained. This is specifically

365
00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:31.340
 what they are doing, and

366
00:17:31.340 --> 00:17:32.960
 it does look when it...

367
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.060
 There's a difference, I suspect,

368
00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:37.160
 and maybe this has brought it all out

369
00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.160
 into the open, and your point is very well

370
00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:41.300
 taken. Police work

371
00:17:41.300 --> 00:17:43.340
 in the interior, your

372
00:17:43.340 --> 00:17:45.220
 city cop, is not trained

373
00:17:45.220 --> 00:17:47.640
 this way, and he would probably be fired

374
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.240
 if he only went after brown

375
00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:51.280
 people and arrested them and considered them

376
00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:52.820
 to be criminal first.

377
00:17:53.340 --> 00:17:55.180
 You know, we have this idea in our country that

378
00:17:55.180 --> 00:17:57.120
 you're innocent until proven

379
00:17:57.120 --> 00:17:59.660
 guilty, that you're not supposed to be racially profiled

380
00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:01.160
 and be arrested just

381
00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.280
 because of the color of your skin. No American

382
00:18:03.280 --> 00:18:04.660
 would ever stand for that.

383
00:18:05.020 --> 00:18:07.200
 But that's what's happening when you bring

384
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.440
 border patrol agents who are trained that way,

385
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.240
 and they're trained that way because they have a

386
00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:13.480
 different militaristic footing. They have a

387
00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:14.540
 paramilitary footing.

388
00:18:15.080 --> 00:18:17.440
 They're going to look at enemy. They're going to look at

389
00:18:18.520 --> 00:18:19.480
 suspects first.

390
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:21.500
 They're not considering these individuals

391
00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:23.800
 to be innocent. That's why they're breaking in

392
00:18:23.800 --> 00:18:25.560
 car windows. That's why they're dragging people

393
00:18:25.560 --> 00:18:27.420
 out of their cars. This is

394
00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:29.640
 part of their training. This is their academy training.

395
00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:31.640
 This is how they're trained along the

396
00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.480
 border because they have the idea that

397
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:34.860
 there's a threat of terrorism

398
00:18:35.340 --> 00:18:37.380
 at the border. So everybody

399
00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:39.620
 is suspected that way. Okay, so to that

400
00:18:39.620 --> 00:18:41.080
 point, and I knew we were going to get through eventually,

401
00:18:41.860 --> 00:18:43.780
 I've already interviewed DEA agents,

402
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.440
 FBI agents. I even have two

403
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.480
 people that are in the intel community that I still stay in

404
00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.520
 touch with. And I'll tell you what, there is a

405
00:18:49.520 --> 00:18:51.500
 real threat of terrorism against the United States of

406
00:18:51.500 --> 00:18:53.520
 America. And just in 2025,

407
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:55.540
 there was over 4,000 terrorist

408
00:18:55.540 --> 00:18:57.360
 encounters at our borders.

409
00:18:57.660 --> 00:18:59.740
 That's enough to put over 80 terrorists

410
00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:01.440
 in every single state of the United States

411
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:03.280
 of America. That is a terrorist cell in every state.

412
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:05.540
 Okay, so far, I think it's

413
00:19:05.540 --> 00:19:07.400
 less than that. I think it's 3,000-something

414
00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.160
 thus far. Let me look. Yep,

415
00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:11.560
 in 2026, so far, just 2026,

416
00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:13.360
 we're not even at the end of the year, they've already encountered

417
00:19:13.360 --> 00:19:15.560
 3,927 terrorists.

418
00:19:15.860 --> 00:19:17.380
 And it doesn't matter what skin color they are.

419
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:19.540
 These are just actual terrorists that were

420
00:19:19.540 --> 00:19:21.120
 caught. That doesn't account for

421
00:19:21.120 --> 00:19:23.520
 getaways, or what they call getaways, which I know you know

422
00:19:23.520 --> 00:19:24.820
 what I'm talking about. So,

423
00:19:25.340 --> 00:19:27.140
 if we take that data, I mean,

424
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:29.420
 we can't say that there is not a

425
00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:31.100
 threat. There is a threat.

426
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:33.020
 And maybe what's happening,

427
00:19:33.340 --> 00:19:35.500
 and I'm not taking away from anything you said,

428
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:37.180
 because I also agree with you,

429
00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:39.360
 I think the way they're going about enforcing

430
00:19:40.280 --> 00:19:41.420
 policies is not

431
00:19:41.420 --> 00:19:43.640
 the correct way to do it. I mean, it's pretty obvious

432
00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:45.660
 if someone has a job, and they've been here 15-20

433
00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:47.440
 years, and there's always an argument saying

434
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.540
 yes, they were here illegal, but I think at some point

435
00:19:49.540 --> 00:19:51.580
 it's like, look, let's reel this back,

436
00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:53.540
 let's start over, let's give you this chance,

437
00:19:54.020 --> 00:19:55.540
 and there's a difference between those people

438
00:19:55.540 --> 00:19:57.260
 and people who actually have a criminal record.

439
00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:58.900
 And I've always said that.

440
00:19:59.340 --> 00:20:01.480
 And most people I know, they feel the same

441
00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.480
 way. Because it's not right. You've been here 20 years, you have

442
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:05.660
 a family, but you've never done anything, you know, wrong.

443
00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:07.660
 Let's give those guys, let's reset

444
00:20:07.660 --> 00:20:09.660
 it. Let's go, okay, here we are,

445
00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:12.340
 let's talk about it, and let's give you a chance to

446
00:20:12.340 --> 00:20:13.760
 get everything going, and let's make

447
00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:15.680
 this legal. Let's make you a citizen, or whatever we

448
00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:17.820
 gotta do. I think they should give them those

449
00:20:17.820 --> 00:20:19.500
 chances, not just suddenly go, okay, you're out.

450
00:20:20.260 --> 00:20:21.780
 And I don't think that's right. That's just my

451
00:20:21.780 --> 00:20:23.700
 opinion. But if we're going back to

452
00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:25.900
 the data here, I mean, how do we then balance

453
00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:27.620
 enforcing the real threat to the United

454
00:20:27.620 --> 00:20:29.820
 States, and enforcing our

455
00:20:29.820 --> 00:20:31.940
 border, and still being empathetic

456
00:20:31.940 --> 00:20:33.540
 and sympathetic to people

457
00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:35.300
 who are looking for a better life?

458
00:20:36.860 --> 00:20:37.860
 It's not an easy

459
00:20:37.860 --> 00:20:39.960
 task. I think there are

460
00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.080
 two parts to this. I'm in full agreement

461
00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:43.240
 with you that there is a threat.

462
00:20:43.940 --> 00:20:45.780
 I have never said in my reporting,

463
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:47.840
 in my personal opinions,

464
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:49.960
 or when I've editorialized about this issue,

465
00:20:50.040 --> 00:20:51.860
 I am pro-immigration,

466
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.480
 for the most part. I think it's a

467
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.760
 fuel to our economy.

468
00:20:56.140 --> 00:20:58.080
 I think our country is founded on immigration,

469
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:00.040
 if it's done the right way. And I've

470
00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:01.520
 never ever

471
00:21:02.820 --> 00:21:04.040
 sort of tried

472
00:21:04.040 --> 00:21:05.920
 to expose the hypocrisy

473
00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:07.720
 that there is no threat.

474
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:09.940
 There is a threat, and I know the threat

475
00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:12.140
 personally. It's not just the

476
00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:14.020
 threat of terrorism, which is real.

477
00:21:15.040 --> 00:21:16.220
 And there are,

478
00:21:16.260 --> 00:21:18.000
 as you say, there are people who are trying

479
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.580
 to do harm to the United States.

480
00:21:19.780 --> 00:21:21.660
 I'm not going to deny that as well.

481
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:24.040
 There's also a drug threat. There's also

482
00:21:24.040 --> 00:21:25.640
 an organized crime threat.

483
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.940
 There's also a human trafficking threat.

484
00:21:28.340 --> 00:21:30.120
 I know these personally because I've reported

485
00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:31.120
 on the threat

486
00:21:32.120 --> 00:21:34.040
 about a little less than 10 years

487
00:21:34.040 --> 00:21:35.380
 ago, maybe 8 years ago now.

488
00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:38.200
 I got involved with the Mexican

489
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:39.940
 drug cartel because I wanted to see

490
00:21:39.940 --> 00:21:42.240
 what it took to get across the border

491
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:43.920
 illegally, to pay

492
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.260
 cartel to cross as a migrant.

493
00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:48.200
 How much does it cost? How do you get

494
00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:49.760
 across? How do they get you across?

495
00:21:49.900 --> 00:21:52.280
 What is the underground system to get

496
00:21:52.280 --> 00:21:53.900
 humans across the border?

497
00:21:54.220 --> 00:21:56.220
 And I went on that journey. And I

498
00:21:56.220 --> 00:21:57.800
 did. I met with cartel members,

499
00:21:57.980 --> 00:22:00.040
 the people who will slice your throat,

500
00:22:00.180 --> 00:22:02.180
 the same cartel heads that were just

501
00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:04.200
 assassinated by the Mexican government

502
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.880
 with U.S. aid.

503
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:07.980
 These are real criminals.

504
00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:10.160
 These are real threats. These are people

505
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.400
 who kill first. That's part

506
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.280
 of their business. And they

507
00:22:14.280 --> 00:22:16.400
 have a very large enterprise south

508
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.360
 of the border in Mexico to get

509
00:22:18.360 --> 00:22:20.300
 migrants across the border. It's almost

510
00:22:20.300 --> 00:22:22.420
 impossible now to get across

511
00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:24.400
 the border illegally without papers

512
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:26.180
 unless you go to a cartel.

513
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:28.260
 And you have to pay them. And they

514
00:22:28.260 --> 00:22:30.120
 know the roots. They know the border patrol

515
00:22:30.120 --> 00:22:32.280
 agents. They pay them off. Or they'll

516
00:22:32.280 --> 00:22:34.660
 get them through in a vehicle,

517
00:22:34.760 --> 00:22:36.420
 under a fence, through a tunnel.

518
00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:38.340
 There's a bunch of ways that they

519
00:22:38.340 --> 00:22:39.800
 get them across. And it's expensive.

520
00:22:40.340 --> 00:22:42.300
 I went on that journey. So I have

521
00:22:42.300 --> 00:22:44.440
 reported on exactly what you're suggesting.

522
00:22:44.800 --> 00:22:46.240
 That there is a criminal threat

523
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.180
 and a criminal element. And it's not just

524
00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:49.580
 people that they get across.

525
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:52.180
 Most of the people that they get across are workers.

526
00:22:52.560 --> 00:22:54.280
 People who have family members

527
00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:56.220
 that they're trying to feed. And they're

528
00:22:56.220 --> 00:22:58.200
 coming across and they're paying exorbitant amounts

529
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:00.420
 to cartel to get across the border so that they can

530
00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:01.760
 find a job in the United States.

531
00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:04.180
 The same roots that they use to get people across

532
00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:05.640
 they use to get drugs across.

533
00:23:06.020 --> 00:23:08.480
 Sometimes they use the migrants themselves as mules

534
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:09.640
 to get their drugs across.

535
00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:12.200
 So I know that whole story because

536
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:13.920
 I've been through it. I, as a matter of fact,

537
00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:16.020
 was deposed by members of Congress

538
00:23:16.020 --> 00:23:17.860
 telling them where the roots are.

539
00:23:18.120 --> 00:23:20.440
 Telling them the cartel names. Telling them exactly

540
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:22.040
 how they get it across. It's highly

541
00:23:22.040 --> 00:23:24.420
 sophisticated. It's highly organized.

542
00:23:24.780 --> 00:23:26.100
 And there is a battle between

543
00:23:26.100 --> 00:23:28.440
 cartel and US law enforcement

544
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:30.540
 and who's going to win that sort of

545
00:23:30.540 --> 00:23:31.780
 thin line along the border

546
00:23:31.780 --> 00:23:34.580
 and who's going to get their goods across and who's going to stop them.

547
00:23:34.860 --> 00:23:36.380
 So I am with you

548
00:23:36.620 --> 00:23:37.760
 on that part.

549
00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:39.940
 Part two of this

550
00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:42.340
 is that we

551
00:23:42.340 --> 00:23:44.560
 have not legalized

552
00:23:44.560 --> 00:23:46.220
 a pathway for

553
00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:48.360
 workers to come from

554
00:23:48.360 --> 00:23:50.520
 Latin America in a way

555
00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:51.720
 that's sane,

556
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.260
 sober, safe. We've

557
00:23:54.260 --> 00:23:56.040
 asked them to come and work in our fields, but

558
00:23:56.040 --> 00:23:58.060
 you're going to have to cross the desert. You're going to have

559
00:23:58.060 --> 00:24:00.400
 to come illegally. You're going to have to pay a cartel head

560
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:01.460
 to get here.

561
00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:03.740
 So I know Canada,

562
00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:06.260
 it's a much smaller country. They don't have a big agricultural

563
00:24:07.260 --> 00:24:08.380
 industry like we do.

564
00:24:08.520 --> 00:24:10.240
 But they fly

565
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:11.580
 Mexican workers

566
00:24:12.360 --> 00:24:14.080
 from small towns in Mexico

567
00:24:14.080 --> 00:24:15.480
 to come and harvest the crops.

568
00:24:15.780 --> 00:24:18.100
 They give them a plane ticket. They give them a visa.

569
00:24:18.560 --> 00:24:20.280
 They work for three months in the fields

570
00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:22.300
 and when they're done with their three months of

571
00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:24.460
 labor in Canada, they fly them back home.

572
00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:26.580
 Don't we have that program in place though?

573
00:24:26.820 --> 00:24:27.680
 Don't we have the H2A?

574
00:24:27.840 --> 00:24:30.540
 Most people don't want to use it because it's expensive.

575
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:31.840
 It's clunky.

576
00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:33.760
 Who doesn't want to use it? The farmers?

577
00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:34.680
 Yeah.

578
00:24:37.800 --> 00:24:38.400
 It's easier

579
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.300
 to have them there legally and not give them

580
00:24:40.300 --> 00:24:42.160
 any sort of overtime

581
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:44.400
 or workers compensation or any

582
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:44.860
 rights.

583
00:24:46.180 --> 00:24:47.860
 I've had an immigration lawyer

584
00:24:47.860 --> 00:24:49.680
 before and she actually discussed that

585
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.280
 very same problems you just brought up

586
00:24:52.280 --> 00:24:53.560
 and it's very, very true.

587
00:24:54.020 --> 00:24:55.860
 They're trying to circumvent the system,

588
00:24:55.900 --> 00:24:57.920
 not pay proper wages, they don't want to house

589
00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.900
 them, they don't want to feed. There's a

590
00:24:59.900 --> 00:25:01.840
 commitment that they have so that they can be part

591
00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:02.500
 of this program.

592
00:25:03.940 --> 00:25:05.780
 Instead of punishing the immigrant, why are they

593
00:25:05.780 --> 00:25:07.300
 not punishing the farmer

594
00:25:07.300 --> 00:25:09.520
 or the company that is doing this?

595
00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:11.500
 The company! I never understood why.

596
00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:13.120
 They're not going after the heads of companies.

597
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.500
 California is wealthy

598
00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:17.440
 because of agriculture. It's the largest

599
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:18.720
 industry in the state.

600
00:25:19.340 --> 00:25:21.740
 80% of the workforce is here illegally.

601
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.540
 There are undocumented workers

602
00:25:23.540 --> 00:25:25.580
 for the most part who work in California

603
00:25:25.580 --> 00:25:27.400
 fields. They're not going after the big ad

604
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:29.620
 companies. They're going after the little guy

605
00:25:29.620 --> 00:25:30.920
 who's picking strawberries.

606
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:35.620
 The US is not really

607
00:25:35.620 --> 00:25:37.260
 taking care of the root of the problem. One,

608
00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:39.300
 go after these heads of businesses

609
00:25:39.300 --> 00:25:41.520
 to be honest. They should have done that a long time ago. Hold them accountable.

610
00:25:42.700 --> 00:25:43.600
 Here's the other thing

611
00:25:43.600 --> 00:25:49.150
 though. I don't mean

612
00:25:49.150 --> 00:25:51.350
 to try to work with Mexico or whoever

613
00:25:51.350 --> 00:25:53.370
 to address the other root of the

614
00:25:53.370 --> 00:25:54.990
 problem, which is them

615
00:25:54.990 --> 00:25:56.970
 needing to come to America

616
00:25:56.970 --> 00:25:59.190
 for a better

617
00:25:59.190 --> 00:26:00.250
 wage, etc.

618
00:26:00.970 --> 00:26:03.110
 I think that's the other part of it

619
00:26:03.110 --> 00:26:04.890
 that we don't talk about. Nobody talks about that.

620
00:26:04.890 --> 00:26:07.070
 We don't. US policy is not about

621
00:26:07.070 --> 00:26:08.330
 leveling the playing field.

622
00:26:09.270 --> 00:26:11.370
 Why don't we have some kind of

623
00:26:11.370 --> 00:26:13.130
 trade balance? Why don't we try

624
00:26:13.130 --> 00:26:14.210
 to level the playing field?

625
00:26:14.370 --> 00:26:17.330
 Why don't we help Mexico's economy elevate?

626
00:26:17.330 --> 00:26:19.650
 There wouldn't be the need for workers to come here

627
00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:21.070
 if Mexico's economy was humming.

628
00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:25.550
 It's a lot easier to say there's a bunch

629
00:26:25.550 --> 00:26:27.170
 of illegals taking my job

630
00:26:27.170 --> 00:26:28.830
 than it is to be nuanced

631
00:26:28.830 --> 00:26:31.290
 and to work with other

632
00:26:31.290 --> 00:26:33.690
 countries. It's a lot easier to scare people

633
00:26:33.690 --> 00:26:35.550
 into voting for you,

634
00:26:35.550 --> 00:26:37.170
 which is a lot of what the rhetoric is.

635
00:26:37.270 --> 00:26:39.490
 It's just fear mongering, scapegoating,

636
00:26:39.490 --> 00:26:40.950
 and it's about getting a vote.

637
00:26:41.170 --> 00:26:43.070
 Nobody really wants to do the hard work.

638
00:26:43.510 --> 00:26:45.190
 Democrats, Republican presidents,

639
00:26:45.190 --> 00:26:47.230
 and administrations alike, I think

640
00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:49.530
 the problem that we have today at the border

641
00:26:49.530 --> 00:26:51.130
 and with illegal immigration

642
00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:53.350
 is all the administrations that have

643
00:26:53.350 --> 00:26:55.330
 come before Trump. I don't blame it all on

644
00:26:55.330 --> 00:26:57.270
 him. I blame everybody before

645
00:26:57.270 --> 00:26:59.090
 him for not fixing the problem

646
00:26:59.090 --> 00:27:01.210
 before him. He's just taking

647
00:27:01.210 --> 00:27:03.050
 advantage of it. It goes back a long ways.

648
00:27:03.650 --> 00:27:05.110
 But, you know, it's like

649
00:27:05.110 --> 00:27:07.190
 if we circle back to what we were talking

650
00:27:07.190 --> 00:27:09.150
 about earlier though, it's like, okay,

651
00:27:09.150 --> 00:27:10.910
 sure, the US can help

652
00:27:10.910 --> 00:27:12.970
 level the playing field, but Mexican

653
00:27:13.470 --> 00:27:15.430
 government also wants to have to work

654
00:27:15.430 --> 00:27:17.370
 with the US. And I don't think we have that

655
00:27:17.370 --> 00:27:18.950
 trust right now. That's the other issue.

656
00:27:20.090 --> 00:27:21.230
 And two, if we're

657
00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:23.170
 not holding businesses accountable for circumventing

658
00:27:23.170 --> 00:27:25.110
 the system, I mean, they're just going to keep

659
00:27:25.110 --> 00:27:27.110
 doing what they do. If we take

660
00:27:27.110 --> 00:27:29.150
 that away, I think that would help quite

661
00:27:29.150 --> 00:27:30.970
 a bit with legal workers and

662
00:27:31.650 --> 00:27:33.170
 making sure that these businesses are

663
00:27:33.170 --> 00:27:35.110
 also on a level playing field.

664
00:27:35.910 --> 00:27:36.750
 So there's that too.

665
00:27:37.230 --> 00:27:39.050
 The US government themselves is letting

666
00:27:39.050 --> 00:27:41.390
 this happen as well by not enforcing the laws

667
00:27:41.390 --> 00:27:43.390
 here when it comes to business and commerce.

668
00:27:43.730 --> 00:27:45.610
 But at the same time, we can't just

669
00:27:45.610 --> 00:27:47.410
 step in, and I'm not saying

670
00:27:47.410 --> 00:27:49.370
 I'm not trying to be the arrogant American

671
00:27:49.370 --> 00:27:51.590
 here. We can't just step in and fix Mexico

672
00:27:51.590 --> 00:27:53.570
 because we have our own problems, but we should be

673
00:27:53.570 --> 00:27:56.570
 able to work more as partners. I mean, damn, they're our neighbors right there in the south.

674
00:27:57.130 --> 00:27:58.570
 It's like, why are we not?

675
00:27:58.650 --> 00:28:00.430
 I know, again, I know a lot of people from Mexico.

676
00:28:00.570 --> 00:28:02.530
 It's like, I don't understand why

677
00:28:02.530 --> 00:28:04.750
 we're not working more in a joint fashion

678
00:28:04.750 --> 00:28:06.150
 instead of having this

679
00:28:06.150 --> 00:28:08.590
 like every day it just seems like they

680
00:28:08.590 --> 00:28:10.790
 perpetuate the political theater of

681
00:28:10.790 --> 00:28:13.150
 Mexico versus US. Mexico hates the US.

682
00:28:13.190 --> 00:28:14.750
 US hates Mexico. Like, what is all that?

683
00:28:15.470 --> 00:28:16.290
 Like, why?

684
00:28:16.550 --> 00:28:18.570
 There's a lot of political grandstanding.

685
00:28:18.610 --> 00:28:20.790
 I think it's a lot easier to have the system

686
00:28:20.790 --> 00:28:22.950
 in place as it is. We can take advantage

687
00:28:22.950 --> 00:28:24.570
 of people. There's high profit here.

688
00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:26.930
 I've seen politicians

689
00:28:27.530 --> 00:28:28.990
 lie knowing full

690
00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:30.850
 well that the solution here

691
00:28:30.850 --> 00:28:33.050
 is some sort of a worker program,

692
00:28:33.270 --> 00:28:35.250
 a visa system, a legalization

693
00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:36.890
 program. They don't

694
00:28:36.890 --> 00:28:38.770
 want it. They like the fight. They like

695
00:28:38.770 --> 00:28:40.890
 to throw red meat at their voters.

696
00:28:41.070 --> 00:28:42.630
 They like to scare people

697
00:28:42.630 --> 00:28:44.750
 that you're being invaded, so

698
00:28:44.750 --> 00:28:46.790
 you're going to vote for me. I've seen them do that

699
00:28:46.790 --> 00:28:48.930
 on purpose. It's a political move

700
00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:50.870
 more than it is about fixing the

701
00:28:50.870 --> 00:28:52.770
 problem. It takes

702
00:28:52.770 --> 00:28:53.310
 work.

703
00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:56.430
 Nobody seems to want to do that work.

704
00:28:56.870 --> 00:28:58.790
 Yeah, I mean, that's the key to politics.

705
00:28:58.850 --> 00:29:00.530
 Keep people divided. Honestly,

706
00:29:00.570 --> 00:29:03.170
 you keep us on our heels. We can't come together

707
00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:04.690
 if we're always at each other's

708
00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:06.390
 throats. Right, and we can blame

709
00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:08.450
 the people coming across the border.

710
00:29:08.810 --> 00:29:10.470
 When I've seen corporations,

711
00:29:11.110 --> 00:29:12.810
 I'm not kidding. During the harvest

712
00:29:12.810 --> 00:29:14.770
 season, if there's not enough workers in a

713
00:29:14.770 --> 00:29:16.890
 California field, that large

714
00:29:16.890 --> 00:29:18.730
 agribusiness, that big corporate

715
00:29:18.730 --> 00:29:20.770
 head will get a bus, will get a school

716
00:29:20.770 --> 00:29:22.650
 bus. He'll go down to the border and he'll fill it

717
00:29:22.650 --> 00:29:24.790
 with workers who don't have any papers.

718
00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:26.770
 I have done that myself as a

719
00:29:26.770 --> 00:29:28.650
 reporter. I have gotten on a job

720
00:29:28.650 --> 00:29:30.870
 picking grapes with other undocumented

721
00:29:30.870 --> 00:29:32.830
 workers. They never asked me for ID.

722
00:29:33.170 --> 00:29:34.610
 They never asked me for my name.

723
00:29:34.610 --> 00:29:36.970
 They never asked me for a social security number.

724
00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:38.410
 They paid me in cash.

725
00:29:38.710 --> 00:29:40.110
 No questions asked.

726
00:29:40.530 --> 00:29:42.630
 I got to work on the day that I got on to

727
00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:44.910
 the farm and nobody asked me any questions.

728
00:29:45.090 --> 00:29:46.650
 And that's how they do business

729
00:29:46.650 --> 00:29:48.390
 and they prefer to do business that way.

730
00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:50.630
 That's also part of the problem.

731
00:29:51.230 --> 00:29:52.650
 It is the problem. I've

732
00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:54.610
 always said if there were no jobs in the

733
00:29:54.610 --> 00:29:56.590
 United States for an undocumented

734
00:29:56.590 --> 00:29:58.390
 worker, we wouldn't need a border fence

735
00:29:58.390 --> 00:30:00.670
 because nobody would come. The majority of

736
00:30:00.670 --> 00:30:02.570
 the people, border patrols, say 99%

737
00:30:02.570 --> 00:30:04.670
 of the people who come to the United States without papers

738
00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:06.750
 are looking for work. So if there

739
00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:08.710
 wasn't a job, if there was a stopgap

740
00:30:08.710 --> 00:30:10.610
 measure where you wouldn't be hired

741
00:30:10.610 --> 00:30:12.610
 by any sort of company because you

742
00:30:12.610 --> 00:30:14.710
 didn't have the right paperwork, you wouldn't come.

743
00:30:15.550 --> 00:30:16.150
 You wouldn't come.

744
00:30:16.630 --> 00:30:18.590
 Exactly. Again, these businesses are

745
00:30:18.590 --> 00:30:19.410
 circumventing the system.

746
00:30:20.650 --> 00:30:22.810
 If the agricultural business

747
00:30:22.810 --> 00:30:24.770
 was monitored much more closely,

748
00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:26.710
 we wouldn't have these low

749
00:30:26.710 --> 00:30:28.550
 wage positions. George, it's not monitored

750
00:30:28.550 --> 00:30:30.530
 at all. I know that.

751
00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:32.490
 They're not

752
00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:34.630
 arresting these guys. This is a

753
00:30:34.630 --> 00:30:36.970
 felony to hire an undocumented

754
00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:38.590
 worker and pay them under the table

755
00:30:38.590 --> 00:30:40.530
 without taxes. It's a felony, but

756
00:30:40.530 --> 00:30:42.490
 they're not being charged. Yeah, it absolutely

757
00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:43.570
 is. Absolutely.

758
00:30:45.450 --> 00:30:46.490
 Can you

759
00:30:46.490 --> 00:30:48.130
 give us

760
00:30:49.170 --> 00:30:50.730
 some more stories

761
00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:52.630
 of encounters and people you've interviewed?

762
00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:54.670
 We've been talking

763
00:30:54.670 --> 00:30:56.650
 about policy and border patrol and we're talking about some

764
00:30:56.650 --> 00:30:58.410
 of the root issues and causes here.

765
00:30:58.410 --> 00:31:00.690
 Can you also give us some of the human

766
00:31:00.690 --> 00:31:02.990
 side of this from a migrant's perspective

767
00:31:02.990 --> 00:31:04.090
 that you've encountered?

768
00:31:05.090 --> 00:31:06.710
 Do you have anything that you can

769
00:31:06.710 --> 00:31:07.590
 tell us? Sure.

770
00:31:08.330 --> 00:31:10.510
 That journey that I took across the border with

771
00:31:10.510 --> 00:31:12.570
 the cartels approval,

772
00:31:12.770 --> 00:31:14.570
 I documented the whole

773
00:31:14.570 --> 00:31:15.910
 time that I went.

774
00:31:17.170 --> 00:31:17.410
 I met

775
00:31:18.270 --> 00:31:20.470
 in my, let me just step back

776
00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:22.770
 a little bit. When you cross the border

777
00:31:22.770 --> 00:31:24.710
 illegally, you have

778
00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:26.050
 a coyote, a guide,

779
00:31:26.050 --> 00:31:27.990
 who will take you across.

780
00:31:28.150 --> 00:31:30.310
 This coyote has two cell phones

781
00:31:30.310 --> 00:31:31.490
 and a walkie talkie.

782
00:31:32.030 --> 00:31:33.970
 And he is in constant communication

783
00:31:33.970 --> 00:31:36.210
 with cartel members and also

784
00:31:36.210 --> 00:31:38.190
 with a lookout on the US side

785
00:31:38.190 --> 00:31:40.270
 to see what border patrol activity looks like.

786
00:31:40.290 --> 00:31:41.710
 So that when you cross the border,

787
00:31:41.930 --> 00:31:43.190
 you're usually in the open.

788
00:31:44.070 --> 00:31:46.150
 And you meet up with a small migrant

789
00:31:46.150 --> 00:31:47.550
 group that this coyote will take

790
00:31:47.550 --> 00:31:50.190
 across, usually a dozen people or

791
00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:52.210
 less. It's easy to manage a dozen

792
00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:54.050
 people or less. If the group gets any bigger,

793
00:31:54.050 --> 00:31:55.730
 it gets a little unwieldy.

794
00:31:56.090 --> 00:31:58.070
 I was in one of those groups. I was in one

795
00:31:58.070 --> 00:32:00.130
 of those migrant groups and I met a 17-year-old

796
00:32:00.130 --> 00:32:02.050
 boy from central Mexico.

797
00:32:02.550 --> 00:32:04.230
 He didn't even speak Spanish. He spoke

798
00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:06.030
 a native, indigenous tongue.

799
00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:08.290
 He was a native Mexican

800
00:32:08.290 --> 00:32:10.710
 Indian. And his

801
00:32:10.710 --> 00:32:12.410
 mother, who lived in a rural

802
00:32:12.410 --> 00:32:14.090
 part of Mexico, had

803
00:32:14.090 --> 00:32:16.090
 no health care and she was dying of cancer.

804
00:32:16.830 --> 00:32:18.170
 And so he

805
00:32:18.170 --> 00:32:19.430
 didn't know what to do.

806
00:32:19.990 --> 00:32:22.010
 The only idea that he had

807
00:32:22.010 --> 00:32:24.030
 in his mind was to get to the United States and find

808
00:32:24.030 --> 00:32:25.990
 a job and send money

809
00:32:25.990 --> 00:32:27.950
 back home. He called a couple of

810
00:32:27.950 --> 00:32:29.850
 friends that he knew in the United States that

811
00:32:29.850 --> 00:32:30.810
 worked at a Walmart

812
00:32:31.930 --> 00:32:33.910
 cleaning parking lots. Guys

813
00:32:33.910 --> 00:32:36.030
 that get there at five o'clock in the morning and

814
00:32:36.030 --> 00:32:37.830
 clean up the trash with leaf blowers

815
00:32:37.830 --> 00:32:39.830
 and just clean up the parking lots.

816
00:32:39.870 --> 00:32:42.010
 And they had a couple of accounts and

817
00:32:42.010 --> 00:32:43.830
 they said, we could get you a job.

818
00:32:44.190 --> 00:32:45.790
 He was going to North Carolina

819
00:32:45.790 --> 00:32:48.210
 from the Mexico border to work

820
00:32:48.210 --> 00:32:49.950
 cleaning parking lots. And he had

821
00:32:49.950 --> 00:32:52.310
 the job and I met him. He was 17 years old

822
00:32:52.310 --> 00:32:54.230
 and he was going to cross the border

823
00:32:54.230 --> 00:32:56.050
 illegally. He borrowed as much money

824
00:32:56.050 --> 00:32:58.310
 as he could to pay the cartel to get him across.

825
00:32:58.710 --> 00:33:00.150
 And he and I for five days

826
00:33:01.270 --> 00:33:02.230
 tried to get across

827
00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:04.090
 the U.S. Mexico border into the Arizona

828
00:33:04.090 --> 00:33:05.950
 desert. We walked day after day

829
00:33:05.950 --> 00:33:07.370
 in 100 plus degree heat.

830
00:33:08.010 --> 00:33:09.170
 He never made it.

831
00:33:09.930 --> 00:33:11.870
 He never made it. He

832
00:33:11.870 --> 00:33:13.930
 died in the attempt. He

833
00:33:13.930 --> 00:33:16.190
 became dehydrated. I lost contact

834
00:33:16.190 --> 00:33:17.870
 with him and I had heard that he had passed

835
00:33:17.870 --> 00:33:19.270
 because he was trying to cross.

836
00:33:19.870 --> 00:33:21.010
 To me, he is a hero.

837
00:33:21.770 --> 00:33:24.130
 I get emotional when I talk about him because

838
00:33:24.130 --> 00:33:25.710
 he was doing everything

839
00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:27.810
 right. I know it's illegal to get into the

840
00:33:27.810 --> 00:33:29.730
 United States without papers. But to

841
00:33:29.730 --> 00:33:31.850
 him, he didn't have a choice to

842
00:33:31.850 --> 00:33:34.010
 obey the law. He wanted to save his mother's

843
00:33:34.010 --> 00:33:35.730
 life. And if he needed to cross

844
00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:37.870
 that border illegally to get that

845
00:33:38.650 --> 00:33:39.850
 minimum wage job at

846
00:33:39.850 --> 00:33:41.710
 a parking lot in North Carolina

847
00:33:41.710 --> 00:33:43.850
 of a Walmart, he was going

848
00:33:43.850 --> 00:33:45.770
 to do it. Come hell or high water and he was going to

849
00:33:45.770 --> 00:33:47.250
 risk his life and by God he did.

850
00:33:47.770 --> 00:33:49.630
 So that story stays with me all the time.

851
00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:50.970
 I think about him quite frequently.

852
00:33:51.250 --> 00:33:53.530
 That he was sweet,

853
00:33:53.830 --> 00:33:55.430
 kind, innocent,

854
00:33:56.570 --> 00:33:57.530
 family man.

855
00:33:58.250 --> 00:33:59.610
 No criminal nature

856
00:33:59.610 --> 00:34:01.690
 as far as who he was as a

857
00:34:01.690 --> 00:34:03.290
 human being. He just was desperate

858
00:34:03.290 --> 00:34:05.410
 and he was going to do anything

859
00:34:05.410 --> 00:34:07.030
 he could to save his mother's life.

860
00:34:07.350 --> 00:34:09.670
 I don't know that if I were in his shoes,

861
00:34:09.870 --> 00:34:11.510
 I would probably do the same thing.

862
00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:15.750
 That's a

863
00:34:15.750 --> 00:34:17.730
 good thing. It's like how, why are people

864
00:34:17.730 --> 00:34:19.650
 risking their life to that degree

865
00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:21.469
 to let's just be honest, what would be considered

866
00:34:21.469 --> 00:34:23.190
 an entry level job, right?

867
00:34:23.530 --> 00:34:25.590
 It's not a high paying job, but to him

868
00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:28.030
 it was worth his life to get over here

869
00:34:28.030 --> 00:34:29.810
 to have that opportunity.

870
00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:31.409
 He would have made

871
00:34:31.409 --> 00:34:33.370
 ten times more a day

872
00:34:33.370 --> 00:34:35.570
 working that Walmart job

873
00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:37.770
 than he could have found in his village

874
00:34:37.770 --> 00:34:39.750
 in Mexico. He was making about

875
00:34:39.750 --> 00:34:41.670
 three dollars a day, maybe

876
00:34:41.670 --> 00:34:43.489
 a little bit more, three to four dollars a day

877
00:34:43.489 --> 00:34:45.790
 in his village in Mexico. That was not enough to pay his mother's

878
00:34:45.790 --> 00:34:47.630
 medical bills. He was going to be making

879
00:34:47.630 --> 00:34:49.690
 about forty bucks a day at that minimum wage

880
00:34:49.690 --> 00:34:51.570
 job. It's crazy because when you look

881
00:34:51.570 --> 00:34:53.670
 at, I mean, like if you look at Mexico City,

882
00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:55.690
 so modern, like so much going on,

883
00:34:55.690 --> 00:34:57.650
 such a beautiful city, and you always

884
00:34:57.650 --> 00:34:59.710
 hear about these towns, you know, on the

885
00:34:59.710 --> 00:35:01.570
 outskirts of Mexico or in these villages where

886
00:35:01.570 --> 00:35:03.490
 it's just poor and they're treated

887
00:35:03.490 --> 00:35:05.610
 so badly. The majority of the population in Mexico

888
00:35:05.610 --> 00:35:07.490
 is below the poverty line, the majority.

889
00:35:08.090 --> 00:35:09.610
 Not ten percent, not twenty percent,

890
00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:11.190
 the majority of the population.

891
00:35:12.500 --> 00:35:14.180
 What in your mind can,

892
00:35:15.560 --> 00:35:16.500
 for example,

893
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:17.660
 us as neighbors,

894
00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:20.520
 what can we actually do to work with

895
00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:22.360
 Mexico to help with that?

896
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:24.400
 Because we kind of mentioned it, but we didn't

897
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:26.520
 really get into like, what can be done?

898
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:28.780
 It's a very good question.

899
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:30.760
 You know, we're a capitalistic society,

900
00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:32.400
 so we want to pay the least

901
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.520
 amount for a tomato or produce or whatever

902
00:35:34.520 --> 00:35:36.680
 comes from Mexico. So we're going to

903
00:35:36.680 --> 00:35:38.620
 drive those prices down. We have the

904
00:35:38.620 --> 00:35:40.440
 North American Free Trade Agreement

905
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.900
 with Mexico so we can trade freely,

906
00:35:43.100 --> 00:35:44.560
 but we can also bargain for

907
00:35:44.560 --> 00:35:46.620
 low prices. So we pay

908
00:35:46.620 --> 00:35:48.640
 Mexico wages to

909
00:35:48.640 --> 00:35:50.380
 grow our produce, to manufacture

910
00:35:50.380 --> 00:35:52.600
 our television sets, build cars

911
00:35:52.600 --> 00:35:54.500
 for us, but we pay them Mexican

912
00:35:54.500 --> 00:35:56.560
 wages. We keep them

913
00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:58.220
 poor because it's to our benefit.

914
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:00.320
 We go to China and we do the same thing.

915
00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:02.620
 It's cheaper to manufacture in China

916
00:36:02.620 --> 00:36:04.660
 because the labor costs are lower.

917
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:06.940
 So there would have to be

918
00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:08.380
 not a free trade agreement

919
00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:10.560
 with Mexico. If you wanted to elevate their economy,

920
00:36:10.600 --> 00:36:12.540
 there would have to be a fair trade agreement

921
00:36:12.540 --> 00:36:14.720
 where you would have to elevate the standard

922
00:36:14.720 --> 00:36:16.660
 of living by paying just a bit more.

923
00:36:17.340 --> 00:36:18.580
 I don't know if this is

924
00:36:18.580 --> 00:36:20.740
 true. I've heard economically, if you were willing

925
00:36:20.740 --> 00:36:22.600
 to pay an extra 10

926
00:36:22.600 --> 00:36:24.540
 cents for a head of lettuce, let's say it's a

927
00:36:24.540 --> 00:36:26.480
 dollar, you are willing to pay a

928
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:28.500
 $1.10, it would elevate wages

929
00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:30.500
 enough for everybody to make a good

930
00:36:30.500 --> 00:36:32.500
 living in Mexico. So it's not a

931
00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:34.420
 lot, but we would have to pay a bit

932
00:36:34.420 --> 00:36:35.460
 more for what we buy.

933
00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:37.640
 Yeah, and depending on what story you go to,

934
00:36:37.660 --> 00:36:39.620
 it seems like you're paying way more than that

935
00:36:39.620 --> 00:36:40.760
 for some reason.

936
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:42.940
 Today we certainly are, you're right.

937
00:36:44.200 --> 00:36:45.580
 Well, I get your point though.

938
00:36:45.820 --> 00:36:47.380
 And you're not wrong, but

939
00:36:47.380 --> 00:36:49.460
 part of that agreement is also Canada.

940
00:36:49.600 --> 00:36:51.660
 So is Canada doing enough, for example?

941
00:36:52.640 --> 00:36:53.340
 And then

942
00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:54.960
 if we're not just talking Mexico,

943
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:57.240
 let's just talk about

944
00:36:57.240 --> 00:36:58.720
 all the countries in the South.

945
00:36:59.240 --> 00:37:01.140
 We have Guatemalans, we have

946
00:37:01.140 --> 00:37:03.620
 so many other people, Honduras,

947
00:37:03.620 --> 00:37:05.760
 El Salvador, like everybody also trying to get

948
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:07.740
 through Mexico to get through the U.S. border.

949
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.440
 So it's not just Mexicans,

950
00:37:10.020 --> 00:37:11.520
 but it's like the whole

951
00:37:11.520 --> 00:37:13.600
 South, or South

952
00:37:13.600 --> 00:37:15.760
 America, it just seems like

953
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:17.800
 it's... Latin America is a disaster.

954
00:37:18.660 --> 00:37:19.700
 Most of Latin America

955
00:37:19.700 --> 00:37:21.740
 is a disaster. There's another issue

956
00:37:21.740 --> 00:37:23.840
 that we're not addressing a lot, and I've

957
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:25.040
 reported on recently,

958
00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.160
 at least in the last couple of years.

959
00:37:27.740 --> 00:37:29.700
 Most of Latin America, or a large portion

960
00:37:29.700 --> 00:37:31.560
 of Latin America, lives off the land.

961
00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:34.080
 It's an agrarian, agricultural

962
00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:35.900
 society. They grow their own crops.

963
00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:37.840
 They feed their livestock with it.

964
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.020
 They sell the extra for a little bit of money.

965
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:42.040
 That's pretty much the system.

966
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:43.760
 So when crops fail,

967
00:37:44.180 --> 00:37:45.980
 when crops fail in a lot of

968
00:37:45.980 --> 00:37:47.900
 Latin American countries, especially Central

969
00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:49.900
 America right now, the economy

970
00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:52.020
 falls apart. I mean, there's not a lot

971
00:37:52.020 --> 00:37:53.900
 of foundation under it. There's not a lot of

972
00:37:53.900 --> 00:37:55.780
 diversity in the economy. So when

973
00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:57.800
 crops fail, the entire system

974
00:37:57.800 --> 00:37:59.700
 fails. And right now with climate

975
00:37:59.700 --> 00:38:01.720
 change, especially in Central America,

976
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.440
 they're losing crops left and right.

977
00:38:03.720 --> 00:38:05.500
 There are hurricanes upon hurricanes

978
00:38:05.500 --> 00:38:06.940
 that they've never experienced before.

979
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:08.980
 There's flooding. There's drought.

980
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:11.460
 There's all kinds of systems that are really

981
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:13.580
 wreaking havoc on a system

982
00:38:13.580 --> 00:38:15.620
 that relies on produce

983
00:38:15.620 --> 00:38:17.540
 and relies. So when

984
00:38:17.540 --> 00:38:19.700
 the crops fail, you see this big

985
00:38:19.700 --> 00:38:21.600
 influx of people coming from Central America

986
00:38:21.600 --> 00:38:23.400
 and South America to the United States

987
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:24.900
 because there's no way to make a living.

988
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.560
 There's no infrastructure. There's no government

989
00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:29.340
 that will support them.

990
00:38:29.700 --> 00:38:31.180
 Right. It's either

991
00:38:32.220 --> 00:38:33.640
 agriculture and the

992
00:38:33.640 --> 00:38:35.480
 fishing industry and a lot of fishermen off

993
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.560
 the coastlines and whatnot. And then also

994
00:38:37.560 --> 00:38:39.340
 tourism. You know,

995
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:41.660
 and those are the only things. And if you can't

996
00:38:41.660 --> 00:38:43.220
 have any of those working together, then

997
00:38:43.980 --> 00:38:45.540
 their economy is based on just

998
00:38:45.540 --> 00:38:47.340
 those three things, really mostly. It's hanging

999
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:49.320
 on by a thread. You're absolutely right.

1000
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.440
 And when it fails, there's

1001
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:53.740
 hundreds of thousands of people without work.

1002
00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:55.460
 And what are you going to do? Where are you going to

1003
00:38:55.460 --> 00:38:57.200
 go? Oh, the U.S. is a wealthy country.

1004
00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:58.580
 I'm going to give that a try.

1005
00:38:59.140 --> 00:39:00.520
 I want to go back to the

1006
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:02.860
 yeah, sorry, John. I didn't mean to cut you off.

1007
00:39:03.140 --> 00:39:05.360
 I wanted to go back to what

1008
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:07.120
 you touched on when you were talking about that

1009
00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:09.300
 yes, there's a drug problem and things like

1010
00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:11.420
 that as well. So the Mexican

1011
00:39:11.420 --> 00:39:12.660
 cartels have

1012
00:39:13.460 --> 00:39:15.300
 and I know you did some

1013
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:17.300
 actual investigation on this, but

1014
00:39:17.300 --> 00:39:19.080
 the Mexican cartels have become more

1015
00:39:19.080 --> 00:39:21.280
 emboldened and more dangerous. And it kind of

1016
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.000
 goes back to what we're talking about in terms of a

1017
00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.260
 terrorist threat. They're classified as terrorist

1018
00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:27.200
 organizations. By all means, everything

1019
00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:29.120
 that they do literally falls

1020
00:39:29.120 --> 00:39:30.920
 under being a terrorist. But

1021
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:32.340
 people just talk about

1022
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.040
 this is how big they are. People just talk about

1023
00:39:35.580 --> 00:39:37.220
 what's going on between

1024
00:39:37.220 --> 00:39:39.060
 the Mexican cartels and the

1025
00:39:39.060 --> 00:39:41.060
 USA in terms of the drug trade. A lot

1026
00:39:41.060 --> 00:39:43.000
 of people aren't talking about the 300

1027
00:39:44.180 --> 00:39:45.340
 tons of cocaine

1028
00:39:45.340 --> 00:39:47.220
 that is

1029
00:39:47.220 --> 00:39:49.080
 confiscated in Europe that comes from Mexico

1030
00:39:49.080 --> 00:39:51.000
 as well. You know, they're

1031
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:53.420
 a global organization. They're working

1032
00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:54.860
 in the Middle East now.

1033
00:39:55.520 --> 00:39:56.540
 They're sending

1034
00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.920
 their paramilitary

1035
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:01.260
 people to

1036
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:02.580
 war zones to get trained.

1037
00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:04.980
 There were some that went over to Ukraine to get

1038
00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:06.560
 training. And so it's like

1039
00:40:06.560 --> 00:40:09.140
 we can't treat these Mexican cartels

1040
00:40:09.140 --> 00:40:10.940
 as just something that is local to

1041
00:40:10.940 --> 00:40:12.840
 Mexico anymore. I mean, they are a world

1042
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:13.500
 problem.

1043
00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:16.940
 And so with everything that just happened, like when they

1044
00:40:16.940 --> 00:40:18.940
 just took out, was it El Mencho

1045
00:40:18.940 --> 00:40:21.060
 I believe was his name, when they just

1046
00:40:21.060 --> 00:40:22.980
 took him out, and then the retaliation

1047
00:40:22.980 --> 00:40:25.140
 that happened in Mexico. And what I found

1048
00:40:25.140 --> 00:40:26.980
 interesting is if you look at, well if you

1049
00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:28.820
 believe social media, number one, but

1050
00:40:28.820 --> 00:40:30.760
 it seems like

1051
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.060
 a lot of people were saying, nope,

1052
00:40:33.080 --> 00:40:34.900
 everything's fine in Mexico. There's nothing going on.

1053
00:40:35.040 --> 00:40:36.700
 There's no explosions, no attacks,

1054
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.240
 no retaliation. And

1055
00:40:39.720 --> 00:40:41.180
 do you know if that's true?

1056
00:40:41.220 --> 00:40:42.820
 Do you have a different take on that?

1057
00:40:44.680 --> 00:40:46.060
 The only thing I can compare it to,

1058
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:48.280
 having done reporting on

1059
00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.520
 Mexican drug cartels for a

1060
00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:52.620
 chunk of my career, and also

1061
00:40:52.620 --> 00:40:54.440
 the Colombian cartels

1062
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:56.320
 when there was a war on drugs during the

1063
00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:56.900
 Bush years.

1064
00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:00.400
 It's basically the way

1065
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.220
 they communicate is through threat,

1066
00:41:02.300 --> 00:41:04.140
 through terror, through burning of buildings,

1067
00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:06.100
 through burning of cars, through assassinations,

1068
00:41:06.560 --> 00:41:07.480
 mutilating bodies.

1069
00:41:07.940 --> 00:41:10.240
 It becomes their calling card. So

1070
00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:12.300
 if they go ahead and they

1071
00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:14.240
 knock off a kingpin, the head

1072
00:41:14.240 --> 00:41:16.240
 of one of the largest drug cartels in Mexico,

1073
00:41:16.240 --> 00:41:17.860
 which just happened a few days ago,

1074
00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:20.440
 they're going to retaliate in kind.

1075
00:41:21.120 --> 00:41:22.380
 They're not going to retaliate

1076
00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:24.460
 any other way. They want you to know how big they

1077
00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:26.440
 are, how threatening they are, how dangerous

1078
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:27.800
 they are. So

1079
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.540
 sometimes when I see those things happen,

1080
00:41:30.640 --> 00:41:32.220
 I almost think it's

1081
00:41:32.220 --> 00:41:34.000
 probably the wrong approach.

1082
00:41:34.340 --> 00:41:36.300
 Because all you're going to do is escalate.

1083
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:38.280
 All you're going to do is embolden them.

1084
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:40.120
 You're going to deepen their hatred,

1085
00:41:40.180 --> 00:41:42.360
 you're going to deepen their retaliation.

1086
00:41:42.660 --> 00:41:44.520
 I think Mexico has become an unsafe

1087
00:41:44.520 --> 00:41:46.260
 place overnight.

1088
00:41:47.220 --> 00:41:48.760
 Mexican cartels are entrenched

1089
00:41:48.760 --> 00:41:50.520
 in government in Mexico.

1090
00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:52.960
 Mexican government is a corrupt system.

1091
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:54.740
 It is not necessarily run

1092
00:41:54.740 --> 00:41:56.900
 by the cartels, but there are heads of state

1093
00:41:56.900 --> 00:41:58.740
 in Mexico that are cartel members.

1094
00:41:59.220 --> 00:42:00.640
 The police forces in Mexico

1095
00:42:00.640 --> 00:42:02.780
 are cartel. So you

1096
00:42:02.780 --> 00:42:04.640
 have to be very careful where

1097
00:42:04.640 --> 00:42:06.680
 you poke the bear because they're going to

1098
00:42:06.680 --> 00:42:08.660
 roar. So I don't know

1099
00:42:08.660 --> 00:42:10.800
 that killing the kingpin, although it's a

1100
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:12.520
 feather in Trump's cap because

1101
00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:14.640
 he kind of took ownership

1102
00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:16.720
 of that in his State of the Union address

1103
00:42:16.720 --> 00:42:18.580
 that he had a hand in it.

1104
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:20.600
 But I think it comes

1105
00:42:20.600 --> 00:42:22.580
 with a big cost to civil

1106
00:42:22.580 --> 00:42:24.640
 society. I would be afraid to be

1107
00:42:24.640 --> 00:42:25.980
 in Mexico right now.

1108
00:42:26.700 --> 00:42:28.340
 One of the things that we don't

1109
00:42:28.340 --> 00:42:30.600
 address is the

1110
00:42:30.600 --> 00:42:32.140
 drug use in the United States.

1111
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:34.360
 We're the largest consumers of illegal

1112
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:35.680
 narcotics in the world.

1113
00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:37.640
 There's a market here.

1114
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:38.860
 There's a market.

1115
00:42:38.860 --> 00:42:41.200
 Sure. But let's go back

1116
00:42:41.200 --> 00:42:42.740
 to what we said about Trump taking

1117
00:42:42.740 --> 00:42:44.480
 feather in his cap, State of the Union.

1118
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:47.040
 Realistically, all we did was help in supplying

1119
00:42:47.040 --> 00:42:48.540
 intelligence. I mean, we didn't

1120
00:42:48.540 --> 00:42:50.600
 go out there and put boots on the ground.

1121
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:52.600
 I mean, it was important intelligence, but

1122
00:42:52.600 --> 00:42:54.700
 Mexican government actually took care of things.

1123
00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:56.800
 So I don't want to take away from that, but

1124
00:42:56.800 --> 00:42:58.880
 let's also discuss, like, you say

1125
00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:00.380
 the cartels don't run the government

1126
00:43:01.620 --> 00:43:02.920
 officially, but the cartels

1127
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:05.340
 have been a problem since the late 70s.

1128
00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:07.060
 I mean, this has been an ongoing

1129
00:43:07.060 --> 00:43:08.760
 thing since the late 70s.

1130
00:43:08.780 --> 00:43:11.080
 This is what happens when you have a failed government.

1131
00:43:11.300 --> 00:43:13.220
 Somebody steps in in the power

1132
00:43:13.220 --> 00:43:15.340
 vacuum. And if it's not the

1133
00:43:15.340 --> 00:43:16.900
 cartels, it'll be the gangs.

1134
00:43:17.120 --> 00:43:19.140
 In El Salvador, for the longest time,

1135
00:43:19.160 --> 00:43:20.460
 gangs ran the show.

1136
00:43:20.980 --> 00:43:23.140
 They were the government. Gangs fixed

1137
00:43:23.140 --> 00:43:25.120
 pipes and roofs and roads

1138
00:43:25.120 --> 00:43:26.960
 and built baseball parks

1139
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:29.020
 in addition to extorting people

1140
00:43:29.020 --> 00:43:30.620
 and assassinating people.

1141
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.000
 So it is a need that is

1142
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:35.100
 filled by a void of a failed government

1143
00:43:35.100 --> 00:43:37.560
 that isn't bent on law enforcement,

1144
00:43:37.700 --> 00:43:38.480
 that is corrupt.

1145
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:40.960
 I don't know where you could go in Mexico

1146
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.080
 and not pay off a cop to get

1147
00:43:43.080 --> 00:43:43.880
 out of a ticket,

1148
00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:47.080
 to not be arrested. I've done

1149
00:43:47.080 --> 00:43:48.980
 most of my business in Latin America

1150
00:43:48.980 --> 00:43:50.980
 by bribes. I'm not

1151
00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:53.000
 proud of saying that, but I've paid

1152
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:55.040
 off officials to let me go

1153
00:43:55.040 --> 00:43:57.140
 and let me do my work. And it's a corrupt

1154
00:43:57.140 --> 00:43:58.820
 system. So

1155
00:43:58.820 --> 00:44:01.320
 corruption breeds corruption. We have

1156
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:03.120
 hopefully still a rule of law

1157
00:44:03.120 --> 00:44:05.460
 in the United States. I'm not saying it's not

1158
00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:07.500
 corrupt, but probably not as

1159
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:08.780
 corrupt. Right.

1160
00:44:09.060 --> 00:44:11.120
 Oh, there is corruption. We know that.

1161
00:44:11.260 --> 00:44:13.220
 Of course. Okay, so let's talk about

1162
00:44:13.220 --> 00:44:15.040
 the drugs. You were just saying

1163
00:44:15.040 --> 00:44:17.360
 that there is a market, a demand,

1164
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:19.120
 and it's driven by

1165
00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:21.460
 the people in the United States.

1166
00:44:22.340 --> 00:44:22.560
 Right?

1167
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:25.060
 It's the largest market.

1168
00:44:25.240 --> 00:44:27.100
 I don't want to say that they're

1169
00:44:27.100 --> 00:44:29.340
 the cause of it all, but

1170
00:44:29.340 --> 00:44:31.280
 I don't know. Go to any corner

1171
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:33.700
 in my city. I can score

1172
00:44:33.700 --> 00:44:34.980
 just about anything I want.

1173
00:44:35.200 --> 00:44:37.400
 I can get you some pot. I can get you some

1174
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:39.260
 coke. Right. You want pills.

1175
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:41.320
 You want meth. What do

1176
00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:42.840
 you want? I can call up a dealer.

1177
00:44:43.120 --> 00:44:45.440
 It's not hard. It's not hard to find drugs in the United

1178
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:46.020
 States.

1179
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:49.300
 It isn't. Okay, so

1180
00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:51.320
 cocaine was introduced when in the United States

1181
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.080
 roughly around early 80s,

1182
00:44:53.100 --> 00:44:55.140
 somewhere around there. I would imagine.

1183
00:44:55.200 --> 00:44:57.420
 I'm not quite sure, but that sounds about

1184
00:44:57.420 --> 00:44:59.300
 right. I believe that's what it was. Late 70s,

1185
00:44:59.300 --> 00:45:00.660
 early 80s. It was introduced.

1186
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:03.660
 So there's two things we can say about this.

1187
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:05.140
 Okay? Yes,

1188
00:45:05.660 --> 00:45:07.240
 people in the U.S. are too damn addicted on

1189
00:45:07.240 --> 00:45:09.340
 stuff. They need to just stop. I mean, let's just be honest.

1190
00:45:09.740 --> 00:45:11.080
 But we also can't ignore that

1191
00:45:11.080 --> 00:45:13.180
 the market has been created and fueled

1192
00:45:13.180 --> 00:45:15.300
 and pushed and expanded by

1193
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:17.360
 those who are supplying. So it's a two-way street,

1194
00:45:17.540 --> 00:45:18.140
 unfortunately.

1195
00:45:19.820 --> 00:45:20.540
 But let's not

1196
00:45:21.040 --> 00:45:23.340
 just talk about the U.S. Let's talk about

1197
00:45:23.340 --> 00:45:25.180
 what happened in Venezuela and

1198
00:45:25.180 --> 00:45:27.220
 everything that came out about that. Now, I can go

1199
00:45:27.220 --> 00:45:29.280
 into all the geopolitical stuff about

1200
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.400
 Venezuela and Iran and China

1201
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:33.300
 and their involvement and everything that happened going on with

1202
00:45:33.300 --> 00:45:35.320
 Peru. You name it. I can do

1203
00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:37.280
 that if you want. I have a lot of knowledge on that.

1204
00:45:37.560 --> 00:45:39.300
 But we also can talk about how

1205
00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:41.400
 they were literally shipping

1206
00:45:42.160 --> 00:45:43.500
 250 metric tons

1207
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:45.220
 of cocaine only, not all drugs,

1208
00:45:45.260 --> 00:45:47.620
 just the cocaine side of it, to

1209
00:45:47.620 --> 00:45:49.260
 Europe. Okay?

1210
00:45:50.120 --> 00:45:51.280
 Only 25% of that

1211
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:52.440
 went to the U.S.

1212
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:55.280
 Actually, I just mentioned there was

1213
00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:57.280
 300 tons of cocaine that was

1214
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.500
 being stopped. This isn't everything that went through,

1215
00:45:59.640 --> 00:46:01.520
 but being stopped in Europe coming from

1216
00:46:01.520 --> 00:46:02.580
 the Mexican cartels.

1217
00:46:03.240 --> 00:46:04.880
 So the drug demand is very global.

1218
00:46:05.220 --> 00:46:07.400
 And Asia is now becoming the market.

1219
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:09.380
 The Mexican cartels right now

1220
00:46:09.380 --> 00:46:11.280
 are literally trying to get

1221
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:13.200
 into Asia because it's such

1222
00:46:13.200 --> 00:46:15.200
 a bigger demand. In fact, cocaine

1223
00:46:15.200 --> 00:46:16.820
 goes for twice the price

1224
00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:18.420
 than they can get here.

1225
00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:21.440
 So there's a demand

1226
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:23.350
 everywhere. And if you're

1227
00:46:23.350 --> 00:46:25.250
 talking about countries that do it legally, like

1228
00:46:25.250 --> 00:46:27.530
 let's talk about Portugal, it's legal, right?

1229
00:46:27.730 --> 00:46:28.510
 You can do drugs.

1230
00:46:29.990 --> 00:46:31.450
 You can't say there still isn't a black

1231
00:46:31.450 --> 00:46:33.630
 market there because even though they legalize,

1232
00:46:33.630 --> 00:46:35.410
 for example, marijuana or weed in many states

1233
00:46:35.410 --> 00:46:37.590
 here, there's still a black market in those areas

1234
00:46:37.590 --> 00:46:39.490
 because those legalized drugs are

1235
00:46:39.490 --> 00:46:41.650
 expensive. So

1236
00:46:41.650 --> 00:46:43.290
 it's like, is

1237
00:46:43.290 --> 00:46:44.830
 it a U.S. problem?

1238
00:46:45.090 --> 00:46:47.390
 Is it because people are addicted or we just have

1239
00:46:47.390 --> 00:46:48.830
 a human problem where people just

1240
00:46:49.350 --> 00:46:51.390
 cannot shake being

1241
00:46:51.390 --> 00:46:53.490
 addicted drugs because they take them to a place other than

1242
00:46:53.490 --> 00:46:55.390
 where their lives are.

1243
00:46:55.550 --> 00:46:57.370
 It's like what came first, chicken

1244
00:46:57.370 --> 00:46:59.110
 or egg, right? Cart before the horse. I mean,

1245
00:46:59.330 --> 00:47:00.710
 I'm not sure we know how to fix this.

1246
00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:03.530
 I think, George, if you don't deal with it holistically, all you're

1247
00:47:03.530 --> 00:47:05.510
 doing is kind of trying to

1248
00:47:05.510 --> 00:47:07.430
 chop the head of Medusa. She's just going

1249
00:47:07.430 --> 00:47:08.590
 to grow two more heads.

1250
00:47:10.110 --> 00:47:11.530
 You're just going to

1251
00:47:11.530 --> 00:47:13.410
 kill the kingpin, but you're not going to deal with

1252
00:47:13.410 --> 00:47:15.430
 the demand or you're not going to deal with

1253
00:47:15.430 --> 00:47:17.490
 the corruption. You're

1254
00:47:17.490 --> 00:47:18.990
 just exacerbating the problem.

1255
00:47:18.990 --> 00:47:20.950
 It has to be a holistic approach.

1256
00:47:21.050 --> 00:47:22.990
 It has to be an all-encompassing

1257
00:47:22.990 --> 00:47:24.830
 approach if you really want to deal with this.

1258
00:47:24.910 --> 00:47:26.910
 Yeah. But, you know, making it legal doesn't work.

1259
00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:28.430
 Making it legal doesn't work.

1260
00:47:28.790 --> 00:47:30.770
 And then you have the legal drug trade. You know,

1261
00:47:30.770 --> 00:47:33.030
 we're talking about the opioid epidemic in the 90s,

1262
00:47:33.030 --> 00:47:34.850
 etc. And it's still going on. So it's like

1263
00:47:34.850 --> 00:47:36.810
 it's all a big mess. And when

1264
00:47:36.810 --> 00:47:39.070
 I talked to one of my DEA

1265
00:47:39.070 --> 00:47:41.070
 friends, he said that he believes that the

1266
00:47:41.070 --> 00:47:42.950
 drug trade, the way it exploded and

1267
00:47:42.950 --> 00:47:44.970
 how the cartels got so big. I mean, we can talk about other

1268
00:47:44.970 --> 00:47:46.990
 things. A lot of it came

1269
00:47:46.990 --> 00:47:49.390
 right off the coattails

1270
00:47:49.390 --> 00:47:51.270
 of the opioid epidemic because

1271
00:47:51.270 --> 00:47:52.890
 people became more addicted

1272
00:47:52.890 --> 00:47:55.230
 to a substance and then they

1273
00:47:55.230 --> 00:47:57.150
 started chasing other means and methods

1274
00:47:57.150 --> 00:47:59.130
 to keep chasing that high.

1275
00:48:00.090 --> 00:48:00.950
 So who would blame anybody?

1276
00:48:01.510 --> 00:48:02.990
 Yeah, let's blame the drug

1277
00:48:02.990 --> 00:48:04.270
 manufacturer. That's where it started.

1278
00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:07.190
 Of course. I think if I want to

1279
00:48:07.190 --> 00:48:08.990
 have a good client

1280
00:48:08.990 --> 00:48:11.090
 or a regular customer, I'm going to make

1281
00:48:11.090 --> 00:48:13.390
 sure they're addicted to this stuff. I'm going to manufacture

1282
00:48:13.390 --> 00:48:15.210
 it in a way that I have a customer

1283
00:48:15.210 --> 00:48:17.390
 for life. That's on purpose.

1284
00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:19.450
 All right.

1285
00:48:19.470 --> 00:48:20.810
 We're not going to solve those problems.

1286
00:48:21.990 --> 00:48:23.270
 I need that bottle

1287
00:48:23.270 --> 00:48:25.650
 of champagne that's sitting behind you.

1288
00:48:25.990 --> 00:48:26.450
 I mean,

1289
00:48:26.890 --> 00:48:29.330
 I was going to have a beer, but I'm on the coffee right

1290
00:48:29.330 --> 00:48:31.310
 now. But yeah, I hear you. Hey,

1291
00:48:31.310 --> 00:48:33.350
 listen, I kind of got away a little

1292
00:48:33.350 --> 00:48:35.670
 bit of why you were here. But I

1293
00:48:35.670 --> 00:48:37.230
 appreciate this conversation because I want your

1294
00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:39.250
 perspective. You have done the work.

1295
00:48:39.370 --> 00:48:41.190
 You know, you investigated these things.

1296
00:48:41.210 --> 00:48:43.350
 So I did want to hear what you had to say

1297
00:48:43.350 --> 00:48:45.210
 on it. I kind of want to hear.

1298
00:48:45.410 --> 00:48:46.850
 Let's talk about your podcast, too.

1299
00:48:47.030 --> 00:48:49.790
 You've done some documentaries. You also have the podcast, The Raid.

1300
00:48:49.870 --> 00:48:51.250
 I've heard a few episodes where

1301
00:48:51.990 --> 00:48:53.330
 actually shedding light

1302
00:48:53.330 --> 00:48:55.790
 on migrants who went through

1303
00:48:55.790 --> 00:48:57.470
 getting deported or dealing with

1304
00:48:57.470 --> 00:48:59.330
 what you said earlier about being targeted just

1305
00:48:59.330 --> 00:49:00.850
 for being brown, et cetera. And also,

1306
00:49:01.170 --> 00:49:03.350
 you talk to people that can explain the

1307
00:49:03.350 --> 00:49:04.970
 legal aspects of the situation.

1308
00:49:05.770 --> 00:49:07.750
 Can you tell everybody about your work there

1309
00:49:07.750 --> 00:49:09.210
 and maybe some stories

1310
00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:11.350
 or encounters from that podcast that

1311
00:49:11.350 --> 00:49:12.650
 really stuck with you?

1312
00:49:13.810 --> 00:49:15.770
 I have found that doing a podcast

1313
00:49:15.770 --> 00:49:17.390
 probably like you have, too, gives

1314
00:49:17.390 --> 00:49:19.350
 me a lot of freedom. I have worked in

1315
00:49:19.930 --> 00:49:21.490
 mostly national television for most

1316
00:49:21.490 --> 00:49:23.470
 of my career, and it's for shit.

1317
00:49:24.350 --> 00:49:25.490
 National broadcast news

1318
00:49:25.490 --> 00:49:27.130
 today is for shit on

1319
00:49:27.130 --> 00:49:29.490
 all sides. It is

1320
00:49:30.550 --> 00:49:31.070
 salacious.

1321
00:49:31.570 --> 00:49:33.530
 They want only the headlines. They don't

1322
00:49:33.530 --> 00:49:35.710
 inform the public in a way that's necessary

1323
00:49:35.710 --> 00:49:37.790
 that you and I can come away from

1324
00:49:37.790 --> 00:49:39.490
 a news report feeling like we've

1325
00:49:39.490 --> 00:49:41.530
 learned something. It's all about

1326
00:49:41.530 --> 00:49:43.170
 tit for tat, headlines,

1327
00:49:43.470 --> 00:49:45.290
 grab attention, all of that kind of stuff.

1328
00:49:45.370 --> 00:49:47.270
 It's all to attract advertisers

1329
00:49:47.270 --> 00:49:49.250
 and to attract viewers, and

1330
00:49:49.250 --> 00:49:51.410
 the audiences left basically

1331
00:49:51.410 --> 00:49:53.670
 just hating each other and shouting at the television

1332
00:49:53.670 --> 00:49:55.670
 set because they hate America

1333
00:49:55.670 --> 00:49:57.510
 or they hate their government or whatever it is.

1334
00:49:57.510 --> 00:49:59.490
 It's just to get people kind of

1335
00:49:59.490 --> 00:50:01.450
 emotionally involved. So I've

1336
00:50:01.450 --> 00:50:03.290
 stopped trying to pitch my stories

1337
00:50:03.290 --> 00:50:05.250
 to the broadcast outlets, which

1338
00:50:05.250 --> 00:50:07.390
 was my entire career for a long time.

1339
00:50:07.390 --> 00:50:09.750
 So the podcast is born out of that.

1340
00:50:10.210 --> 00:50:11.310
 I'd rather have somebody

1341
00:50:11.310 --> 00:50:13.250
 sit down like you are right now,

1342
00:50:13.390 --> 00:50:15.350
 somebody who knows what they're talking about, whether it's

1343
00:50:15.350 --> 00:50:17.410
 an immigration lawyer, whether it's somebody

1344
00:50:17.410 --> 00:50:19.150
 who's being detained,

1345
00:50:19.610 --> 00:50:21.450
 somebody who works at a detention facility,

1346
00:50:21.530 --> 00:50:23.390
 a politician who might be trying to pass

1347
00:50:23.390 --> 00:50:25.450
 legislation. Everybody who

1348
00:50:25.450 --> 00:50:27.250
 is involved in this big immigration

1349
00:50:27.250 --> 00:50:29.410
 mess, I put them on the podcast

1350
00:50:29.410 --> 00:50:31.490
 and I let them speak and I let them

1351
00:50:31.490 --> 00:50:33.210
 have their platform

1352
00:50:33.210 --> 00:50:35.450
 whether you believe them or not, whether you think

1353
00:50:35.450 --> 00:50:37.470
 they're full of shit. I get those comments all the time.

1354
00:50:37.470 --> 00:50:39.170
 I'm a liar. I'm a bot.

1355
00:50:39.310 --> 00:50:41.190
 That's okay. You can

1356
00:50:41.190 --> 00:50:43.430
 do that. I know what I'm doing. Some of

1357
00:50:43.430 --> 00:50:45.130
 the people who stood out to me the most,

1358
00:50:45.990 --> 00:50:47.590
 for example, there was a

1359
00:50:47.590 --> 00:50:49.310
 young man who was in Oxnard,

1360
00:50:49.310 --> 00:50:51.690
 California, which is a big agricultural community,

1361
00:50:52.150 --> 00:50:53.670
 was going to work in his truck.

1362
00:50:54.170 --> 00:50:55.410
 There was an immigration raid

1363
00:50:55.410 --> 00:50:57.450
 right where his work was, and he

1364
00:50:57.450 --> 00:50:59.450
 had no idea what was happening. This is when the raids

1365
00:50:59.450 --> 00:51:01.470
 were starting in California in the summer, in

1366
00:51:01.470 --> 00:51:05.430
 June, and he's a

1367
00:51:05.430 --> 00:51:07.990
 he got pulled into this whole mess

1368
00:51:07.990 --> 00:51:09.950
 and he got his windshield

1369
00:51:09.950 --> 00:51:12.010
 smashed in, his driver's side window

1370
00:51:12.010 --> 00:51:13.650
 smashed in, he got pepper sprayed,

1371
00:51:14.610 --> 00:51:15.970
 he was tear gassed,

1372
00:51:16.310 --> 00:51:17.690
 he was pulled out of his vehicle,

1373
00:51:17.770 --> 00:51:19.890
 he was arrested, he was handcuffed,

1374
00:51:20.210 --> 00:51:21.890
 he had eight, and I've seen

1375
00:51:21.890 --> 00:51:23.930
 the photos, he had eight US border

1376
00:51:23.930 --> 00:51:25.470
 patrol agents on his back,

1377
00:51:25.810 --> 00:51:27.870
 one on his neck, he could barely breathe,

1378
00:51:28.210 --> 00:51:29.970
 and he was detained for three days.

1379
00:51:30.330 --> 00:51:31.770
 He's in a rocky war bed.

1380
00:51:32.470 --> 00:51:33.910
 He's a US citizen.

1381
00:51:33.910 --> 00:51:36.170
 He told the guys every single

1382
00:51:36.170 --> 00:51:37.810
 minute he could have a breath

1383
00:51:37.810 --> 00:51:39.950
 that he was a US citizen. He didn't look

1384
00:51:39.950 --> 00:51:42.230
 like one, he didn't, quote, look like one.

1385
00:51:42.630 --> 00:51:43.790
 He got

1386
00:51:44.550 --> 00:51:46.150
 involved with a whole group of farm

1387
00:51:46.150 --> 00:51:47.890
 workers that they were arresting

1388
00:51:47.890 --> 00:51:49.810
 at the time, and the border patrol

1389
00:51:49.810 --> 00:51:52.010
 agents wouldn't take his word for it. While he was

1390
00:51:52.010 --> 00:51:53.950
 arrested and detained,

1391
00:51:53.970 --> 00:51:56.010
 he was not allowed to call a lawyer, he was

1392
00:51:56.010 --> 00:51:57.910
 not allowed to call his family, it was his daughter's

1393
00:51:58.650 --> 00:51:59.610
 third birthday,

1394
00:52:00.230 --> 00:52:02.010
 he was going to go after

1395
00:52:02.010 --> 00:52:03.510
 her to buy her her gift.

1396
00:52:04.050 --> 00:52:06.150
 He didn't get to celebrate her third birthday,

1397
00:52:06.830 --> 00:52:08.070
 so, you know,

1398
00:52:08.150 --> 00:52:09.770
 he had a platform.

1399
00:52:10.690 --> 00:52:11.650
 He's actually

1400
00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:13.590
 testifying in Congress a few times

1401
00:52:13.590 --> 00:52:16.390
 to try and change the way that ICE does business.

1402
00:52:17.210 --> 00:52:18.150
 But those are

1403
00:52:18.150 --> 00:52:20.010
 the kinds of people that we're looking for on

1404
00:52:20.010 --> 00:52:20.550
 the podcast.

1405
00:52:22.150 --> 00:52:24.290
 That's good. And you're

1406
00:52:24.290 --> 00:52:26.170
 presenting people's perspectives who actually

1407
00:52:26.170 --> 00:52:28.050
 went through these situations, so

1408
00:52:28.050 --> 00:52:29.670
 and like you said,

1409
00:52:29.670 --> 00:52:31.970
 I'm just going to put it out there, whether people believe it or not,

1410
00:52:32.630 --> 00:52:33.630
 as I told you

1411
00:52:33.630 --> 00:52:35.710
 when we were putting this together

1412
00:52:35.710 --> 00:52:37.130
 and we were discussing earlier,

1413
00:52:37.630 --> 00:52:39.570
 I think we need to have

1414
00:52:39.570 --> 00:52:41.690
 these conversations, we need to hear

1415
00:52:41.690 --> 00:52:43.790
 these stories, and honestly,

1416
00:52:44.250 --> 00:52:46.070
 I'll say it again, I am so

1417
00:52:46.070 --> 00:52:48.010
 tired of the echo chamber

1418
00:52:48.010 --> 00:52:50.050
 phenomenon. It's ridiculous.

1419
00:52:50.470 --> 00:52:51.910
 And especially prevalent

1420
00:52:51.910 --> 00:52:53.930
 in podcasting and, well, social

1421
00:52:53.930 --> 00:52:55.650
 media. So

1422
00:52:55.650 --> 00:52:57.850
 It really drives viewership or listenership.

1423
00:52:57.850 --> 00:53:00.210
 I mean, you know, they want to stimulate

1424
00:53:00.210 --> 00:53:01.870
 the algorithm. They want to get people

1425
00:53:01.870 --> 00:53:03.190
 upset. But you know what?

1426
00:53:03.550 --> 00:53:05.350
 Our country's falling apart here.

1427
00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:08.090
 If you don't have real

1428
00:53:08.090 --> 00:53:10.050
 informed citizenry, it's really

1429
00:53:10.050 --> 00:53:11.770
 hard to vote for someone

1430
00:53:11.770 --> 00:53:14.090
 that you know whether or not you're voting for the right

1431
00:53:14.090 --> 00:53:15.810
 person. It's really hard to make business

1432
00:53:15.810 --> 00:53:17.810
 decisions. It's really hard to

1433
00:53:17.810 --> 00:53:19.910
 love your neighbor if you think they're out

1434
00:53:19.910 --> 00:53:21.830
 to get you. So, you know, this

1435
00:53:21.830 --> 00:53:24.050
 misinformation and disinformation and

1436
00:53:24.050 --> 00:53:25.710
 sleight of hand is crap.

1437
00:53:25.710 --> 00:53:27.670
 I'm really sick of it as a journalist.

1438
00:53:27.670 --> 00:53:29.750
 I got into this business to

1439
00:53:29.750 --> 00:53:31.610
 inform people, period.

1440
00:53:31.690 --> 00:53:33.770
 I'm not trying to give them a slant. I'm trying

1441
00:53:33.770 --> 00:53:35.870
 to give them a perspective that they may

1442
00:53:35.870 --> 00:53:37.970
 not know because I'm the person on the ground.

1443
00:53:38.510 --> 00:53:39.570
 And they don't have to go there.

1444
00:53:39.570 --> 00:53:41.970
 I'm the person that's going to share those kinds of stories.

1445
00:53:42.110 --> 00:53:43.750
 And then they can make up their minds. It's not

1446
00:53:43.750 --> 00:53:45.410
 up to me what they do with the information.

1447
00:53:45.830 --> 00:53:47.150
 It's just my job to give it.

1448
00:53:47.410 --> 00:53:49.810
 Justin, talking to you, you know, it sounds like you

1449
00:53:49.810 --> 00:53:51.030
 take journalism,

1450
00:53:51.670 --> 00:53:53.190
 you know, you take pride in it.

1451
00:53:53.190 --> 00:53:55.790
 And you come at it with,

1452
00:53:55.790 --> 00:53:57.510
 you know, integrity where we don't see

1453
00:53:57.510 --> 00:53:58.450
 that too often.

1454
00:53:59.170 --> 00:54:00.390
 It's part of democracy.

1455
00:54:01.270 --> 00:54:03.390
 The very First Amendment is freedom of the

1456
00:54:03.390 --> 00:54:05.350
 press. I mean, the founders of

1457
00:54:05.350 --> 00:54:07.370
 our country knew very well that

1458
00:54:07.370 --> 00:54:09.470
 politicians and people in high

1459
00:54:09.470 --> 00:54:11.210
 positions of power and wealthy

1460
00:54:11.210 --> 00:54:13.450
 people are going to try and get away

1461
00:54:13.450 --> 00:54:15.450
 with things. So you need a media

1462
00:54:15.450 --> 00:54:16.910
 that is a watchdog

1463
00:54:16.910 --> 00:54:19.370
 and is the fourth rail and holds

1464
00:54:19.370 --> 00:54:21.510
 people to account. That whole system

1465
00:54:21.510 --> 00:54:22.430
 has been shot.

1466
00:54:23.130 --> 00:54:25.610
 What about the division you

1467
00:54:25.610 --> 00:54:27.790
 see, though, where it's become so polarized

1468
00:54:27.790 --> 00:54:29.590
 politically in media? Because, I mean,

1469
00:54:29.990 --> 00:54:31.590
 even in media and journalism

1470
00:54:31.590 --> 00:54:33.650
 for so long, have you

1471
00:54:33.650 --> 00:54:35.590
 seen it shift in a...

1472
00:54:36.290 --> 00:54:36.770
 100%.

1473
00:54:37.290 --> 00:54:39.550
 So it's worse than it ever was, in your opinion,

1474
00:54:39.570 --> 00:54:40.730
 because I kind of think it is.

1475
00:54:41.470 --> 00:54:43.250
 Absolutely. I have no doubt

1476
00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:45.710
 because I've been in it and it's the reason that I've left it.

1477
00:54:45.710 --> 00:54:47.670
 I made a nice living being on

1478
00:54:47.670 --> 00:54:49.690
 television and working in broadcast

1479
00:54:49.690 --> 00:54:52.030
 news. So I don't want it anymore

1480
00:54:52.030 --> 00:54:53.850
 because I know in order

1481
00:54:53.850 --> 00:54:55.670
 for me to tell a story today,

1482
00:54:56.210 --> 00:54:57.850
 it's not about whether or not it's credible

1483
00:54:57.850 --> 00:54:59.890
 or that the public needs to know about it

1484
00:54:59.890 --> 00:55:01.470
 or that it's important information.

1485
00:55:01.850 --> 00:55:03.490
 It's whether or not it's going to sell advertising.

1486
00:55:04.270 --> 00:55:05.950
 Right, right. No, that's exactly

1487
00:55:05.950 --> 00:55:06.350
 what it is.

1488
00:55:07.330 --> 00:55:09.770
 So it didn't matter. I had a very hard

1489
00:55:09.770 --> 00:55:11.870
 time telling stories about the border

1490
00:55:11.870 --> 00:55:13.710
 because, for the most part, it's about

1491
00:55:13.710 --> 00:55:15.770
 Spanish speakers. It's not... It's really

1492
00:55:15.770 --> 00:55:17.730
 important information that we need to know about border

1493
00:55:17.730 --> 00:55:20.470
 security. But if it features a brown person,

1494
00:55:20.950 --> 00:55:21.950
 I don't know if we want it on the

1495
00:55:21.950 --> 00:55:23.670
 air because I don't know if I can sell,

1496
00:55:23.670 --> 00:55:25.590
 you know, I can't sell advertising

1497
00:55:25.590 --> 00:55:27.730
 to car companies or whatever it might

1498
00:55:27.730 --> 00:55:28.370
 be.

1499
00:55:29.350 --> 00:55:31.410
 It's that way still, even now?

1500
00:55:31.430 --> 00:55:32.670
 Of course. It's worse.

1501
00:55:33.830 --> 00:55:35.690
 There's competition for

1502
00:55:35.690 --> 00:55:36.270
 advertising.

1503
00:55:38.030 --> 00:55:39.570
 The media outlets

1504
00:55:39.570 --> 00:55:41.810
 have conglomerated. There are

1505
00:55:41.810 --> 00:55:43.870
 fewer and fewer independent stations

1506
00:55:43.870 --> 00:55:45.730
 that can do really good work. They've all

1507
00:55:45.730 --> 00:55:48.050
 kind of joined together, and they're mighty.

1508
00:55:48.470 --> 00:55:49.970
 You know, they're all buying each other

1509
00:55:49.970 --> 00:55:51.970
 up. There's a merger deal going on right

1510
00:55:51.970 --> 00:55:53.810
 now for Netflix to acquire

1511
00:55:53.810 --> 00:55:54.870
 Warner Brothers

1512
00:55:56.350 --> 00:55:57.390
 and CNN.

1513
00:55:58.310 --> 00:55:59.790
 What the hell does Warner Brothers

1514
00:55:59.790 --> 00:56:00.830
 have to do with CNN?

1515
00:56:01.970 --> 00:56:04.030
 They're going to impose their entertainment

1516
00:56:04.030 --> 00:56:05.790
 values on CNN

1517
00:56:05.790 --> 00:56:07.730
 to be more flashy, to be prettier,

1518
00:56:07.830 --> 00:56:09.990
 to be sexier, whatever it is,

1519
00:56:10.130 --> 00:56:11.610
 and news is going to go out the window.

1520
00:56:12.470 --> 00:56:13.810
 I mean, CNN... I call

1521
00:56:13.810 --> 00:56:15.990
 CNN Children's News Network, so

1522
00:56:15.990 --> 00:56:17.110
 it's already bad.

1523
00:56:18.670 --> 00:56:19.090
 So,

1524
00:56:19.950 --> 00:56:22.230
 do you think there is more value

1525
00:56:22.230 --> 00:56:24.210
 in people who are

1526
00:56:24.650 --> 00:56:25.850
 considered more center

1527
00:56:25.850 --> 00:56:27.430
 these days? It's like,

1528
00:56:28.170 --> 00:56:29.810
 the Democrat Party of old, to be honest,

1529
00:56:29.810 --> 00:56:31.830
 I'm just going to say this, the Democrat Party today

1530
00:56:31.830 --> 00:56:33.890
 is not what they used to be because I used to be

1531
00:56:33.890 --> 00:56:35.790
 a Democrat. A lot of my people from, you know,

1532
00:56:35.890 --> 00:56:37.910
 a lot of us Gen Xers used to be

1533
00:56:37.910 --> 00:56:40.090
 Democrats, and then we look back at the party

1534
00:56:40.090 --> 00:56:41.750
 and what it's become now. We're like,

1535
00:56:41.750 --> 00:56:43.270
 I don't know where it's going.

1536
00:56:44.290 --> 00:56:45.890
 I'm not bashing them just to bash them if you are

1537
00:56:45.890 --> 00:56:48.230
 Democrat, whatever. I'm just saying that we see

1538
00:56:48.230 --> 00:56:49.630
 that party going away.

1539
00:56:49.850 --> 00:56:51.790
 And now, let's just be honest, conservatives

1540
00:56:51.790 --> 00:56:53.910
 are in power and they're starting to do everything they said

1541
00:56:53.910 --> 00:56:55.930
 that they didn't like. They're going

1542
00:56:55.930 --> 00:56:57.930
 the opposite direction. So it's like,

1543
00:56:58.870 --> 00:56:59.810
 it's like, how do we

1544
00:57:01.010 --> 00:57:01.890
 decipher and

1545
00:57:01.890 --> 00:57:03.770
 get through all the bullshit that's

1546
00:57:03.770 --> 00:57:06.010
 being thrown at us in the media

1547
00:57:06.010 --> 00:57:07.610
 today, in your opinion,

1548
00:57:07.710 --> 00:57:09.690
 from someone who's on the other side of it,

1549
00:57:09.690 --> 00:57:11.630
 how do we decipher the bullshit?

1550
00:57:11.830 --> 00:57:13.830
 How do we cut through the middle of it all

1551
00:57:13.830 --> 00:57:15.770
 and realize these

1552
00:57:15.770 --> 00:57:17.690
 guys are just playing team sports and they really don't care

1553
00:57:17.690 --> 00:57:19.950
 about us? They are playing team

1554
00:57:19.950 --> 00:57:21.670
 sports. It's the best description I've heard

1555
00:57:21.670 --> 00:57:23.650
 of it. They are playing the game.

1556
00:57:24.070 --> 00:57:25.830
 It doesn't matter if you have an R next to your

1557
00:57:25.830 --> 00:57:27.650
 name or a D next to your name. You're trying

1558
00:57:27.650 --> 00:57:29.590
 to raise millions of dollars for your campaign

1559
00:57:29.590 --> 00:57:31.710
 and you're kissing this baby and that

1560
00:57:31.710 --> 00:57:34.130
 baby and you're playing the game. It really doesn't matter.

1561
00:57:34.630 --> 00:57:35.890
 You know, I'm

1562
00:57:35.890 --> 00:57:37.830
 going to, you know,

1563
00:57:37.830 --> 00:57:39.890
 deliver all the Epstein files except the ones

1564
00:57:39.890 --> 00:57:41.310
 that I'm in, you know.

1565
00:57:42.430 --> 00:57:42.730
 So,

1566
00:57:43.910 --> 00:57:45.910
 it's the same on both sides. It's the

1567
00:57:45.910 --> 00:57:47.730
 same on both sides. I'm not

1568
00:57:47.730 --> 00:57:49.930
 really for any politician or

1569
00:57:49.930 --> 00:57:51.430
 any political slant.

1570
00:57:51.650 --> 00:57:54.010
 I'm for the facts. I'm for the

1571
00:57:54.010 --> 00:57:55.890
 truth. And if you're a truth

1572
00:57:55.890 --> 00:57:57.530
 teller and if you're a fact teller,

1573
00:57:57.670 --> 00:57:59.910
 I'm on your side. As far as the public is

1574
00:57:59.910 --> 00:58:02.050
 concerned, I don't know how you're going to discern

1575
00:58:02.590 --> 00:58:03.910
 which, who is telling

1576
00:58:03.910 --> 00:58:05.650
 the truth and who is

1577
00:58:05.650 --> 00:58:07.270
 spreading lies or rhetoric.

1578
00:58:07.650 --> 00:58:09.790
 I am a big fan of citizen journalists.

1579
00:58:09.910 --> 00:58:12.030
 I love people with their cell phone cameras

1580
00:58:12.030 --> 00:58:13.710
 who are out there who are documenting,

1581
00:58:14.250 --> 00:58:15.850
 who are sharing information that

1582
00:58:15.850 --> 00:58:17.850
 looks real because they've recorded it

1583
00:58:17.850 --> 00:58:20.070
 on their phones. Podcasters,

1584
00:58:20.070 --> 00:58:21.890
 I think, are the new news organizations.

1585
00:58:23.170 --> 00:58:23.770
 I

1586
00:58:23.770 --> 00:58:25.870
 love you and the stories

1587
00:58:25.870 --> 00:58:27.750
 that you carry. Whether I agree

1588
00:58:27.750 --> 00:58:29.530
 with them or not is not news.

1589
00:58:30.050 --> 00:58:32.050
 You don't have to agree or disagree

1590
00:58:32.050 --> 00:58:33.870
 with facts. You're just supposed

1591
00:58:33.870 --> 00:58:36.210
 to take them like your vegetables. It's just

1592
00:58:36.210 --> 00:58:38.110
 information. So it's not

1593
00:58:38.110 --> 00:58:40.130
 about whether I hate liberals

1594
00:58:40.130 --> 00:58:42.330
 or whether I hate conservatives.

1595
00:58:42.630 --> 00:58:43.730
 That's not news.

1596
00:58:43.990 --> 00:58:46.030
 That's just propaganda and rhetoric.

1597
00:58:46.110 --> 00:58:47.990
 And I do believe that people are

1598
00:58:47.990 --> 00:58:50.030
 trying to fuel those

1599
00:58:51.350 --> 00:58:51.910
 disagreements

1600
00:58:51.910 --> 00:58:54.030
 between us and the truth and the

1601
00:58:54.030 --> 00:58:55.670
 facts get lost in the middle. So

1602
00:58:55.670 --> 00:58:58.070
 I'm trying really hard to just

1603
00:58:58.070 --> 00:59:00.090
 give you information. I get pinned

1604
00:59:00.090 --> 00:59:01.870
 as a left leaning

1605
00:59:03.230 --> 00:59:04.890
 immigrant loving liberal.

1606
00:59:04.950 --> 00:59:06.910
 Fine. You can categorize me

1607
00:59:06.910 --> 00:59:08.690
 any way that you want. But I know

1608
00:59:08.690 --> 00:59:10.770
 my facts are sound. I hear you.

1609
00:59:10.930 --> 00:59:12.930
 You know, I have a few things to say on that.

1610
00:59:13.610 --> 00:59:14.150
 And it's nothing.

1611
00:59:14.530 --> 00:59:16.770
 It reinforces what you said. I have

1612
00:59:16.770 --> 00:59:18.590
 always said people live on the surface

1613
00:59:18.590 --> 00:59:20.170
 of information, literally.

1614
00:59:20.990 --> 00:59:22.530
 They never go past the

1615
00:59:22.530 --> 00:59:24.510
 headline. They don't dive any deeper.

1616
00:59:24.530 --> 00:59:26.510
 And I think that's part of the problem that we have.

1617
00:59:26.850 --> 00:59:28.310
 You know, people keep their heads down.

1618
00:59:29.170 --> 00:59:30.490
 They're buried. They're busy.

1619
00:59:30.490 --> 00:59:32.450
 They're taking their kids to soccer, whatever

1620
00:59:32.450 --> 00:59:34.510
 it is. And they're like, oh, that's what

1621
00:59:34.510 --> 00:59:36.370
 happened. OK, that's what I'm believing. And, you know,

1622
00:59:36.370 --> 00:59:38.470
 I don't need to hear anything else. They don't have time for it.

1623
00:59:38.470 --> 00:59:40.510
 They don't want to have time for it. Don't make it.

1624
00:59:40.690 --> 00:59:42.570
 It's as if they don't

1625
00:59:42.570 --> 00:59:44.550
 care themselves because they don't realize

1626
00:59:44.550 --> 00:59:46.490
 the implications of what

1627
00:59:46.490 --> 00:59:48.670
 is happening around them and how it affects them.

1628
00:59:50.390 --> 00:59:51.990
 And then, you know,

1629
00:59:52.830 --> 00:59:54.530
 you say, you know, you've been

1630
00:59:54.530 --> 00:59:56.590
 labeled or pigeonholed in to be

1631
00:59:56.590 --> 00:59:58.490
 called, you know, a leftist, whatever.

1632
00:59:58.490 --> 01:00:00.590
 You know, I get the same thing. I'll be honest with you.

1633
01:00:00.590 --> 01:00:02.630
 I'm the hardcore MAGA guy, whatever. But, you know,

1634
01:00:03.450 --> 01:00:04.490
 it's like the

1635
01:00:04.490 --> 01:00:06.490
 problem is we only get

1636
01:00:06.490 --> 01:00:08.690
 these things because they don't conversate.

1637
01:00:08.870 --> 01:00:10.390
 You know, they don't sit across from each other.

1638
01:00:10.450 --> 01:00:12.350
 Well, in this case, Zoom, because we're not in front of each other.

1639
01:00:12.730 --> 01:00:14.530
 But, you know, they don't want to do this

1640
01:00:14.530 --> 01:00:16.610
 because they don't want to be offended. They don't want to be

1641
01:00:16.610 --> 01:00:18.610
 challenged. And I think that's bullshit. And again,

1642
01:00:18.950 --> 01:00:20.470
 you don't have to agree with everything.

1643
01:00:20.710 --> 01:00:22.390
 I don't have to agree with everything you say either.

1644
01:00:22.490 --> 01:00:24.490
 But at the same time, I think we could both come away

1645
01:00:24.490 --> 01:00:26.470
 with us learning something and maybe seeing something

1646
01:00:26.470 --> 01:00:28.550
 from a different perspective. You know, I'm not trying

1647
01:00:28.550 --> 01:00:30.470
 to change your core being, but

1648
01:00:31.010 --> 01:00:32.530
 at least we're having a conversation to

1649
01:00:32.530 --> 01:00:34.550
 where we can say, hey, I never thought of

1650
01:00:34.550 --> 01:00:36.510
 that. You know, or, well, I didn't know that

1651
01:00:36.510 --> 01:00:38.430
 story. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong. And that's

1652
01:00:39.010 --> 01:00:40.070
 what's important to me.

1653
01:00:40.450 --> 01:00:42.410
 You know, not what team you support.

1654
01:00:42.610 --> 01:00:44.630
 Right, left, blue, red. I love hearing

1655
01:00:44.630 --> 01:00:46.910
 you say that. I don't find that on broadcast

1656
01:00:46.910 --> 01:00:48.550
 news. I find people in

1657
01:00:48.550 --> 01:00:50.450
 their corners shouting at each other.

1658
01:00:50.630 --> 01:00:52.570
 And that's now what is the

1659
01:00:52.570 --> 01:00:54.430
 substitute for news. I can't tolerate it.

1660
01:00:54.430 --> 01:00:56.550
 I just can't tolerate it. And you know what, John, that's why

1661
01:00:56.550 --> 01:00:58.370
 I like having these conversations.

1662
01:00:58.590 --> 01:01:00.550
 I know everybody, I get a lot

1663
01:01:00.550 --> 01:01:02.570
 of emails people saying, interview this person,

1664
01:01:02.610 --> 01:01:04.650
 interview that person. And I'm not

1665
01:01:04.650 --> 01:01:06.330
 that big. I'm nothing compared to

1666
01:01:06.330 --> 01:01:08.650
 your career at all, believe me. And I

1667
01:01:08.650 --> 01:01:10.250
 understand that. So I appreciate you being here.

1668
01:01:10.710 --> 01:01:12.430
 But what I'm trying to get at is

1669
01:01:12.430 --> 01:01:14.390
 I don't like interviews. I like having conversations

1670
01:01:14.390 --> 01:01:16.450
 like this because we get to know who

1671
01:01:16.450 --> 01:01:18.370
 you are and we get to actually get to

1672
01:01:18.370 --> 01:01:20.470
 some of the questions that most people would never

1673
01:01:20.470 --> 01:01:22.510
 ask. You know, so I hope more

1674
01:01:22.510 --> 01:01:24.390
 people would do that or do what we're doing.

1675
01:01:25.330 --> 01:01:26.490
 The whole 15 minute,

1676
01:01:26.890 --> 01:01:28.510
 okay, tell me about yourself. You're

1677
01:01:28.510 --> 01:01:30.670
 not getting down to the bottom of the thing. You're just crashing the

1678
01:01:30.670 --> 01:01:32.530
 surface. I mean, it's

1679
01:01:32.530 --> 01:01:34.490
 just so played out. And I just

1680
01:01:34.490 --> 01:01:36.430
 hope that stuff goes away and people actually have

1681
01:01:36.430 --> 01:01:38.610
 conversations again. They really do.

1682
01:01:38.990 --> 01:01:40.470
 Do you want to add anything else to that?

1683
01:01:43.490 --> 01:01:44.650
 I'm enjoying this

1684
01:01:44.650 --> 01:01:46.510
 conversation. I never thought

1685
01:01:46.510 --> 01:01:48.850
 of myself as wanting to be in the podcast

1686
01:01:48.850 --> 01:01:50.550
 world. But

1687
01:01:50.550 --> 01:01:52.390
 for me, it's the only place that seems

1688
01:01:52.390 --> 01:01:54.410
 to be giving good information

1689
01:01:54.410 --> 01:01:56.590
 or people who have platforms on social

1690
01:01:56.590 --> 01:01:58.250
 media I listen to as well.

1691
01:01:58.550 --> 01:02:00.810
 I kind of get my media from a large

1692
01:02:00.810 --> 01:02:02.710
 group of people. And sometimes

1693
01:02:02.710 --> 01:02:04.490
 I think I just call, well, that

1694
01:02:04.490 --> 01:02:06.850
 doesn't sound factual. I might check myself.

1695
01:02:07.010 --> 01:02:08.410
 I always put my resources

1696
01:02:08.410 --> 01:02:10.610
 and where I'm

1697
01:02:10.610 --> 01:02:12.730
 coming from whenever I post something on social

1698
01:02:12.730 --> 01:02:14.450
 media or on the podcast. I

1699
01:02:14.450 --> 01:02:16.710
 let people go read the newspaper article themselves

1700
01:02:16.710 --> 01:02:18.370
 or the document that I'm referring to.

1701
01:02:19.450 --> 01:02:20.670
 So, you know,

1702
01:02:20.670 --> 01:02:22.610
 there is a lot of misinformation and a lot of

1703
01:02:22.610 --> 01:02:24.330
 crap out there. I'm not

1704
01:02:25.010 --> 01:02:26.570
 hopeful that we all are getting the

1705
01:02:26.570 --> 01:02:28.390
 right kind of information, but

1706
01:02:28.390 --> 01:02:30.790
 you're right. Let's have a conversation

1707
01:02:30.790 --> 01:02:32.530
 about it. Let's not hate each other before

1708
01:02:32.530 --> 01:02:34.030
 we even get to know each other.

1709
01:02:34.530 --> 01:02:36.670
 I agree with you. Of the documentaries

1710
01:02:36.670 --> 01:02:38.450
 you've done, what is the one you

1711
01:02:38.450 --> 01:02:39.730
 would tell people to watch?

1712
01:02:41.070 --> 01:02:42.310
 There's one out right now

1713
01:02:42.310 --> 01:02:44.750
 which is kind of

1714
01:02:44.750 --> 01:02:46.430
 about what we're talking about. I did

1715
01:02:46.430 --> 01:02:48.410
 a documentary for HBO a couple

1716
01:02:48.410 --> 01:02:50.470
 of years ago. It sat on

1717
01:02:50.470 --> 01:02:52.410
 the shelf for a couple of years.

1718
01:02:52.950 --> 01:02:54.450
 It reveals a cover-up

1719
01:02:54.450 --> 01:02:56.330
 of a murder of an undocumented

1720
01:02:56.330 --> 01:02:58.270
 immigrant at the hands of Border Patrol.

1721
01:02:58.410 --> 01:03:00.390
 Border Patrol brutalized this guy. They

1722
01:03:00.390 --> 01:03:02.390
 beat him up so badly that he died from his

1723
01:03:02.390 --> 01:03:04.070
 injuries. And then there was a cover.

1724
01:03:04.790 --> 01:03:06.610
 They lied about what had happened.

1725
01:03:06.730 --> 01:03:08.390
 They tainted evidence. They planted

1726
01:03:08.390 --> 01:03:10.410
 blood evidence. They lied on official

1727
01:03:10.410 --> 01:03:12.370
 reports. And I investigated

1728
01:03:12.370 --> 01:03:14.610
 the Border Patrol's cover-up

1729
01:03:14.610 --> 01:03:16.490
 as well as what happened to this

1730
01:03:16.490 --> 01:03:18.630
 individual. He wasn't supposed to be in the

1731
01:03:18.630 --> 01:03:20.390
 country. He came across illegally, but he

1732
01:03:20.390 --> 01:03:22.130
 didn't deserve to be beaten to death

1733
01:03:22.130 --> 01:03:23.930
 which is what happened to him.

1734
01:03:24.770 --> 01:03:26.450
 And HBO decided to do

1735
01:03:26.450 --> 01:03:28.270
 a documentary based on my

1736
01:03:28.270 --> 01:03:30.250
 reporting. The documentary is about

1737
01:03:30.250 --> 01:03:31.690
 this particular case.

1738
01:03:32.190 --> 01:03:34.070
 And HBO was afraid to release it.

1739
01:03:34.730 --> 01:03:36.510
 HBO sat on it for over a

1740
01:03:36.510 --> 01:03:38.570
 year. And I pounded

1741
01:03:38.570 --> 01:03:40.350
 the table and said this is information that

1742
01:03:40.350 --> 01:03:42.250
 people need to know. People need to know about

1743
01:03:42.250 --> 01:03:44.170
 what their government is doing and not doing.

1744
01:03:44.530 --> 01:03:46.310
 They need to know about corrupt cops.

1745
01:03:46.690 --> 01:03:48.570
 Whether it's good or bad, we need to know

1746
01:03:48.570 --> 01:03:50.330
 who's a bad cop. And that's

1747
01:03:50.330 --> 01:03:52.530
 what the documentary did. And they

1748
01:03:52.530 --> 01:03:54.210
 sat on it for over a year and

1749
01:03:54.210 --> 01:03:56.230
 then they tried to release it on

1750
01:03:56.230 --> 01:03:58.230
 December 29th, which was a Monday

1751
01:03:58.230 --> 01:04:00.070
 which nobody's watching documentaries.

1752
01:04:00.130 --> 01:04:02.350
 They tried to bury it because they didn't want to piss

1753
01:04:02.350 --> 01:04:04.370
 off the administration and they didn't

1754
01:04:04.370 --> 01:04:06.290
 want the administration

1755
01:04:06.290 --> 01:04:08.230
 at the same time to ruin their

1756
01:04:08.230 --> 01:04:10.350
 merger deal. So just like I'm

1757
01:04:10.350 --> 01:04:12.210
 telling you, it's all about business.

1758
01:04:12.650 --> 01:04:14.370
 It's all about making sure that

1759
01:04:14.370 --> 01:04:16.230
 the money changes hands in the right way.

1760
01:04:16.350 --> 01:04:18.530
 It's all about 80 plus billion

1761
01:04:18.530 --> 01:04:20.190
 dollar mergers, which is what the merger

1762
01:04:20.190 --> 01:04:21.630
 is valued at.

1763
01:04:22.030 --> 01:04:23.990
 And they try to let it go under the radar.

1764
01:04:24.070 --> 01:04:26.370
 So I went to the LA Times and

1765
01:04:26.370 --> 01:04:28.370
 we did a big expose on

1766
01:04:28.370 --> 01:04:30.170
 HBO trying to bury the documentary.

1767
01:04:30.470 --> 01:04:32.250
 Anyway, the documentary is sound.

1768
01:04:32.750 --> 01:04:34.570
 It shows how Border Patrol

1769
01:04:34.570 --> 01:04:36.110
 needs to be raided.

1770
01:04:36.270 --> 01:04:38.290
 There is no oversight. They can

1771
01:04:38.290 --> 01:04:39.850
 kill someone like Alex

1772
01:04:39.850 --> 01:04:42.290
 and cover it up and pretend nothing

1773
01:04:42.290 --> 01:04:44.290
 bad happened here. And that's what the documentary

1774
01:04:44.290 --> 01:04:46.210
 is about. It's about how the

1775
01:04:46.210 --> 01:04:48.530
 US Border Patrol manages its own.

1776
01:04:49.090 --> 01:04:50.410
 It's about how they're trained

1777
01:04:50.410 --> 01:04:52.370
 and how they go out into

1778
01:04:52.370 --> 01:04:54.430
 the country and do what they

1779
01:04:54.430 --> 01:04:56.290
 do. It's really relevant to what's happening

1780
01:04:56.290 --> 01:04:58.310
 today. It's called Critical Incident.

1781
01:04:58.610 --> 01:05:00.370
 So it's on your HBO feed

1782
01:05:00.370 --> 01:05:02.250
 right now. Critical

1783
01:05:02.250 --> 01:05:03.050
 Incident.

1784
01:05:04.610 --> 01:05:06.130
 Why don't you tell everybody else

1785
01:05:06.130 --> 01:05:08.490
 out there where they

1786
01:05:08.490 --> 01:05:09.970
 can follow more of your work.

1787
01:05:10.190 --> 01:05:12.510
 I know you have a website. If you want to tell people about the website,

1788
01:05:14.710 --> 01:05:16.290
 Sure. Mostly the podcast.

1789
01:05:16.470 --> 01:05:18.290
 I mean, we're doing three episodes a week.

1790
01:05:19.070 --> 01:05:19.970
 So The Raid,

1791
01:05:20.250 --> 01:05:22.130
 just like the Immigration Raids, the podcast

1792
01:05:22.130 --> 01:05:24.230
 is called The Raid. And it's at

1793
01:05:24.230 --> 01:05:26.310
 theraidpodcast.org is our website.

1794
01:05:26.570 --> 01:05:28.350
 And anywhere that you get your podcasts,

1795
01:05:28.370 --> 01:05:30.130
 you can find The Raid. And we're

1796
01:05:30.710 --> 01:05:32.190
 talking to everybody. We're

1797
01:05:32.190 --> 01:05:34.130
 talking to everybody who has a hand

1798
01:05:34.130 --> 01:05:36.010
 in what's going on with the immigration

1799
01:05:36.010 --> 01:05:38.030
 rates across the country. Awesome.

1800
01:05:39.010 --> 01:05:40.110
 If you don't mind, John, I want to wrap

1801
01:05:40.110 --> 01:05:41.910
 this up. Great.

1802
01:05:41.930 --> 01:05:44.330
 I actually enjoy talking to you. I just, you know,

1803
01:05:44.490 --> 01:05:46.150
 I've got to call it somewhere, right?

1804
01:05:47.210 --> 01:05:48.270
 You've got to end it sometimes.

1805
01:05:48.650 --> 01:05:50.250
 But no, hey, I appreciate you. You really do.

1806
01:05:50.270 --> 01:05:52.210
 I really do appreciate you taking the time to be on the show.

1807
01:05:52.270 --> 01:05:53.990
 I do. I'd like to stay in touch with you.

1808
01:05:54.030 --> 01:05:55.850
 And if anything else pops up, you know,

1809
01:05:55.850 --> 01:05:57.670
 I will be in touch. And hopefully

1810
01:05:57.670 --> 01:06:00.070
 you feel you can do the same with me.

1811
01:06:00.910 --> 01:06:02.310
 Absolutely. I am

1812
01:06:02.310 --> 01:06:04.490
 so respectful of your work and

1813
01:06:04.490 --> 01:06:06.610
 what you're doing. And as a fellow podcaster,

1814
01:06:06.650 --> 01:06:07.930
 now that I'm in that space,

1815
01:06:09.050 --> 01:06:10.390
 I tip my hat to you. Thank you

1816
01:06:10.390 --> 01:06:12.450
 so much for your time. You're just being nice.

1817
01:06:14.150 --> 01:06:14.870
 No, I've

1818
01:06:14.870 --> 01:06:16.490
 enjoyed it. I can't even believe that we've been talking

1819
01:06:16.490 --> 01:06:18.570
 as long as we have. The time has gone by.

1820
01:06:18.910 --> 01:06:20.050
 No, I appreciate it. Thank you, John.

1821
01:06:20.250 --> 01:06:22.010
 All right. You have a great day.

1822
01:06:22.210 --> 01:06:24.530
 I'm going to sign off now and I encourage everybody

1823
01:06:24.530 --> 01:06:26.210
 to definitely listen to The Raid. I've just

1824
01:06:26.210 --> 01:06:28.310
 a few episodes myself and I'm going

1825
01:06:28.310 --> 01:06:30.250
 to check out that document for sure.

1826
01:06:31.270 --> 01:06:32.130
 Appreciate it. Thank you.