Rob Rosen - Crimes of Omission, Media Bias, and Journalistic Integrity

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 And welcome Rob Rosen, Rob, honestly, I'm just gonna put out this on the recording.

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 I was late.

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 So thank you for waiting for me.

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 Apologize.

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 I hate doing that to my guests.

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 I'm going to put it out there just so everybody knows I'm not perfect here whatsoever.

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 I screwed up.

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 I had a project go a little longer than it should.

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 So thanks for being patient.

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 So let's talk about your journey.

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 I'm going to open up and let you give us some background because I know that

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 You've been a TV producer.

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 You've been in broadcast journalism and investigative journalism, by the way.

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 And you have a lot to say.

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 You got a new book coming out June 2nd, I need more coffee over here, June 2nd.

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 And Crimes of Omission is the title.

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 So before we dive into that, I believe you have a lot to say about media in general

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 as well as the news, for example.

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 Maybe you can give us a little background, give my listeners some background, give me

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 a little bit about what you're about and why you chose to go down this path of releasing

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 this book.

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 And I'll give you the floor.

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 All right.

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 I'll give you the very, very quick bio.

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 But I started in, I came out from Boston to Los Angeles with stars in my eyes

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 and I wanted to be in journalism and didn't quite understand that just having a degree

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 from Boston University journalism and film school and promising to work hard wasn't

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 going to get me very far.

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 So in order to keep my California dreams alive and stay afloat, I found myself selling cars

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 near the Mexican border for a year and did not think this dream was going to happen.

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 And there was a small radio station that had a license out of Tijuana, their transmitter

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 was out of Tijuana called XTRA, which became kind of a better known sports station

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 later, but they were going to a news format.

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 And that was my entry way in.

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 I was able to get a job there and then from there, after a lot of begging and sending

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 out resumes and I got a job at a local TV station in San Diego, and then from there

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 began a good run at broadcast journalism, ended up coming up to Los Angeles pretty quick

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 for K-Cal and then KCBS TV, where I was part of a team that won a couple of Emmys

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 for 11 o'clock newscast and went into entertainment reporting, worked at XTRA, was a

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 reporter on air for a show called Celebrity Justice, which was Harvey Levin's show

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 before TMZ, and decided I wanted to do long form.

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 So I kind of got out of journalism for a bit.

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 I was doing Kitchen Nightmares with Gordon Ramsay.

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 I took on a show called The Dead Files, a paranormal show that's still on HBO Max.

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 And we had a 15 season run, which was amazing.

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 And during that time in the middle of it, a lot of this movement, the anti-police

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 movement was starting up and I wanted to really, for myself, investigate it a

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 little bit more.

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 And I created a show called Reasonable Doubt, where we took a look at possible

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 wrongful murder convictions, but it was going to be a search for truth.

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 We weren't going to just say that every, every convict was innocent.

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 And in fact, most of them were not.

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 But our reporting did help get nine people who had been wrongfully convicted,

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 or we felt they had been released.

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 And that is a very condensed version of 30 years.

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 But basically this book came from the frustration that I looked at journalism

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 and I'm, you know, I'm almost a naive purist about journalism.

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 I mean, I love it.

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 I love, I love TV.

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 I love broadcast journalism.

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 And I think that it plays such an important role, but I started seeing

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 that since I had left it and had gone from being flawed, but still a source

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 of searching for truth into activist and activism, and that bothered me so

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 much that I wanted to explore it through the lens of the anti-police

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 movement of the 2010s, because that was something I knew from Reasonable Doubt.

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 So starting with Trayvon Martin, going through a lot of the big cases that

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 animated the movement up to George Floyd in 2020, I wanted to go through

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 public records and tell the whole story.

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 And hopefully I've told it in a way that's kind of compelling and makes

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 it feel like a true crime mystery.

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 But I try to tell the stories in their entirety.

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 And I'm not saying this isn't, you know, oh, the police

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 were always in the right.

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 It's simply that journalism was almost always in the wrong.

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 They were only cherry picking the evidence.

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 They're only cherry picking the cases they did.

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 They were only telling a little bit of the story and they had left people

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 with the inexorable conclusion that police in this country, like it was,

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 you know, 1950 Mississippi, were hunting people of color.

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 And I think that that was no longer the case in the 2010s, even though

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 there were some really tragic incidents.

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 So there's the long winded answer for everything, but that's just to give

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 you an overview of what brought me to write this book.

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 Yeah.

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 And I'm going to have to ask you to touch or expand on a bit when

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 you're, when you're talking about telling the truth versus basically

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 sensationalizing the news.

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 I would say where it was always sensational.

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 I would say activism, right?

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 So there's a truth versus activism.

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 Right.

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 It was always sensational, right?

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 You always wanted to get as many eyeballs on a story as possible.

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 But just to give you an example, when I was still in the news game

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 and I was working at CBS and the Monica Lewinsky story broke.

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 Now that was a story that today I would tell you almost without a doubt

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 would have been soft peddled or ignored or minimized because it

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 images the presidency of someone who was slightly somewhat progressive.

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 At that time though, a good story was a good story.

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 And even though I would say the majority of television newscasters

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 were probably much more sympathetic to Bill Clinton than Newt Gingrich

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 and the contract with America, they went after that story ferociously

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 because a good story is a good story and they were on it.

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 And, you know, you look at, for example, the allegations that Tara Reid,

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 not the actress made against Joe Biden, and that was just completely

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 dismissed and ignored, even though, you know, there was, I'm not saying

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 she was right, I don't know, but I mean, it certainly was newsworthy.

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 All right.

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 So that being said, let's talk about the activism part that, you know,

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 when it became more activism than telling the truth, and how is it

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 you feel it became more activism on whose part though, too?

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 I mean, we know there's a lot of bias in news.

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 We have less first, right?

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 I mean, politics has become so huge these days.

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 You can't even, you can't go anywhere without being bombarded

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 by anything that's political before we'd be able to escape it, put our

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 head down and go, yeah, I don't really talk about that, but now

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 forget it, every app you open, everything that you do, every news

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 article is all about politics now.

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 So, and we've seen that in the news, especially when COVID came around.

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 It was like really, really heavy.

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 So why don't you explain when you saw the turn, when you saw that

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 it became more activism than it was truth?

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 I think, you know, it's really hard to pinpoint the turn for sure.

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 Something happened in the culture around 2012.

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 It might've started with Trayvon Martin.

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 And, uh, and that's where I started the book, but I think that

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 something happened there and all of a sudden there was a feeling

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 in a lot of newsrooms and I talked to dozens of insiders.

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 There's a feeling that one, this was just an amazing story.

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 You had race, you had passion, you had anger, you had violence, but

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 also, especially amongst the younger members of the staff, I think there

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 was a feeling that this was a generational movement that was going

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 to provoke seminal change in America, systemic change, and they

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 wanted to be on the right side of it.

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 And so you have this weird Alliance where, you know, let's just fast

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 forward just to drop a couple of years, you had, you know, the

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 town of Ferguson in two different, uh, stretches burning itself down.

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 I hate to be flip about this, but that's great TV, right?

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 You, you, CNN brings out a live truck.

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 They send out their reporters and you just, you know, plug and play

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 and you just watch it go and you've got days and nights of like, of

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 coverage that is compelling and it's an easy story to cover.

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 For the management, I would say their motivation is what it's always been.

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 Maximum eyeballs for some of the younger staff members and some of

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 the, uh, more socially justice inclined, uh, reporters and producers.

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 This was a chance to be part of a really, really important story.

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 And this is where they lost sight of a journalist's mission.

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 It wasn't to expose the truth no matter which way it landed, but

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 it was in order to evoke change.

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 And that's not a journalist's job.

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 And I think, and that's, that's the slippery slope to hell.

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 It's not, it doesn't start from a bad place, but a journalist's

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 job is not to create change.

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 That's an advocate's job.

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 A journalist's job is to inform the public and tell, and

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 hold a mirror up to society.

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 Right.

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 So at some point it really became journalists turned into

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 activists and using these media outlets or news channels as a

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 platform to push their narratives.

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 So there, I mean, and some of them were open about it.

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 Look, some, some people that I spoke to to this day would say, you know,

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 oh, that didn't really happen.

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 And I'll kind of, uh, minimize it a little bit, but, um, I had a chapter

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 sort of outlining the old school versus the new school of journalists.

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 And there were people who were very explicit, who were posting tweets or

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 writing papers saying that telling both sides of the story was a relic of

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 the past and that, uh, you know, uh, objectivity was just code for white

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 supremacy and, you know, all sorts of notions, uh, that were probably

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 taught in, uh, expensive and fancy J schools, but really compromise

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 the mission of the profession.

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 Right.

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 We see it all the time and, um, all media.

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 And I find it funny that these same people that you're, uh, discussing

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 that turned, turned news into being not necessarily news anymore, more like

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 activism, they're activists pushing narratives now it's like they're getting

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 on a team, pushing the narrative instead of actually telling the truth, telling

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 you know, both sides of the story.

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 Um, and so how do you feel about social media though?

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 Because now since we're talking about news and we're talking about

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 telling both sides of the story, I mean, like everybody assumes that

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 you're getting the truth on X, for example, a lot of these same

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 personalities that have these news shows, these, you know, I call them

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 pseudo broadcasters and most of these guys, I'm going to be honest with you.

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 This is how I view it.

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 And I know you've been in this business a long time.

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 I just see them as talking heads.

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 Most of these guys aren't even journalists.

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 They're just, they're just reading a teleprompter and most stuff

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 is literally prepared for them.

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 There's very few that actually do any journalism anymore.

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 And so they've, they've been pushed.

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 There's some, they're, they're sensationalizing everything.

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 And yes, everything is sensationalism because ever since, you know, you're

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 able to make money in advertising, they're going to want to get eyeballs.

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 I completely understand that.

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 But I agree with you that we got away from telling both sides.

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 We really have.

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 Um, I try to do that on my show.

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 Yeah, sure.

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 I lean a certain way, but if I'm going to talk to a guest like you, I'm

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 going to let you say whatever you have to say, and I'm not going to

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 try to get in your way whatsoever.

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 But I think we lost that.

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 I agree that we need to get back to it, but how are, how are we

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 going to convince people to trust media outlets or, or people who are

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 like yourself, you're like, sounds like you're someone who wants to come

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 back to reality and tell both sides.

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 So how are we going to get people to trust that again?

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 And, and, and go ahead.

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 I'm going to, I'm going to treat this as a compound question.

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 If you don't mind.

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 Yeah.

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 There's a lot of things that is both sides, right?

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 Yeah.

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 So look, there are two different types of things when you talk about both

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 sides, okay, because that can get a little bit complex.

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 All right.

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 So, uh, today, uh, I'm making this up.

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 The S and P 500 was down 0.1%, 67.2, three.

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 That is a empirically true objective fact.

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 You do not need both sides of that story.

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 Right.

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 Um, there's a, uh, well, you'd like to think, even though I would say

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 at this point, this is even open to debate, but okay, uh, a

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 Lebanese American man, uh, loads his car up with fireworks, uh, drives

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 into a daycare, well, a synagogue that had a hundred, uh, preschool

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 kids for daycare with the intent to blow them up.

230
00:13:11.530 --> 00:13:14.770
 I don't think you really need the other side of the story, even though,

231
00:13:14.770 --> 00:13:16.570
 uh, NPR did seem to think he did.

232
00:13:17.830 --> 00:13:21.110
 Um, so there's certain things that don't need two sides of the story.

233
00:13:21.130 --> 00:13:23.990
 And I think people do get a little bit tripped up by that.

234
00:13:24.250 --> 00:13:30.280
 I think that getting two sides of the story is an art and it's about intent.

235
00:13:30.300 --> 00:13:31.420
 It can never be perfect.

236
00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:34.640
 But let's just say, for example, right now, I don't know exactly

237
00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:37.260
 when you're going to run this, but there's the whole question about the

238
00:13:37.260 --> 00:13:42.300
 funding, uh, you know, funding the budget so that TSA workers can get

239
00:13:42.300 --> 00:13:44.180
 paid and we don't have these delays at the airport.

240
00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.340
 That's a story that lends itself to both sides, right?

241
00:13:47.420 --> 00:13:50.180
 Uh, the Republicans are saying, this is the Democrats doing.

242
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.280
 And if you're in line, you should be pissed off at them.

243
00:13:52.660 --> 00:13:55.540
 The Democrats are saying the Republicans are holding it up.

244
00:13:55.560 --> 00:13:59.760
 You need a credible person from both sides to give the best case.

245
00:14:00.260 --> 00:14:02.740
 And that's where intent comes in, right?

246
00:14:02.740 --> 00:14:05.700
 Because these biases can come in in so many different ways.

247
00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.880
 The media can distort the news without lying very easily.

248
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.340
 And sometimes it's simply getting somebody who's not very

249
00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:16.220
 credible to tell the other side.

250
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:19.260
 So you do say, Hey, I got both sides of the story.

251
00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:23.220
 The only problem is you chose someone who was kind of ridiculous

252
00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:24.960
 or not particularly credible.

253
00:14:26.780 --> 00:14:28.260
 So it's a question.

254
00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:31.860
 That's a, that's a question of intent and, and it's, and

255
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:34.940
 it's a question of good judgment and it's never perfect.

256
00:14:36.100 --> 00:14:42.080
 But, um, but I think that that's, the desire has to be there to be

257
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:46.920
 objective in order for, for a really balanced newscast.

258
00:14:47.540 --> 00:14:51.120
 Um, as far as your second question, I'm sorry to jump on two

259
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:53.680
 completely different thoughts, but you were saying, how does it heal itself?

260
00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.000
 I mean, the last chapter of the book, I do, I call it

261
00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:58.660
 pottery, pottery barns rules.

262
00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:01.760
 You know, you broke it, you got to fix it, got to pay for it.

263
00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:07.160
 Um, I do outline some, some possibilities, but basically it's this.

264
00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:14.640
 I talked to so many news managers, executives, and everybody says, well,

265
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:19.600
 the audience has really been trained to expect, uh, their biases

266
00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:21.520
 to be reinforced by the news.

267
00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:25.700
 And, you know, they're never going to go for objective news.

268
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.160
 Maybe that's true, but I do make the point that if you look at the

269
00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:34.200
 ratings for the network newscasts, uh, now compared to 20 years ago, they've

270
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:35.820
 lost 60% of their audience.

271
00:15:36.280 --> 00:15:38.040
 CNN has lost a ton of its audience.

272
00:15:39.180 --> 00:15:40.840
 Box is doing just fine.

273
00:15:41.260 --> 00:15:42.880
 MSNOW is doing just fine.

274
00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:47.020
 They're always going to just do news that confirms

275
00:15:47.020 --> 00:15:48.780
 the biases of their audience.

276
00:15:48.920 --> 00:15:52.380
 I don't expect those two to change, but everybody else who's hurting.

277
00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:57.180
 Here's a chance to get back to your roots, do real journalism.

278
00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:01.620
 I think it can work because the one thing that I think a lot of people

279
00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:07.780
 miss is if you watch a biased newscast, if you just go turn on an hour of

280
00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:11.380
 MSNOW, an hour of Fox news, you kind of know what you're going to get,

281
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:11.960
 right?

282
00:16:12.020 --> 00:16:13.580
 You kind of know the spin you're going to get.

283
00:16:14.260 --> 00:16:18.300
 Isn't it more interesting to turn on a truly balanced newscast?

284
00:16:18.640 --> 00:16:22.520
 And it's like, it's like a law and order, a CSI, like for one second,

285
00:16:22.540 --> 00:16:23.880
 you think you're out with that side.

286
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.360
 Then you hear something else and you're like, wait a minute, wait a

287
00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.180
 minute, that changes things.

288
00:16:28.540 --> 00:16:29.960
 It's just, to me, it's more interesting.

289
00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:35.940
 It's more dynamic, less predictable, and it's trusting you to actually

290
00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:38.660
 have the good sense to make your opinion based on all the facts.

291
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:39.760
 Cause facts are messy.

292
00:16:40.020 --> 00:16:41.920
 They're not always going to point in one direction.

293
00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:43.240
 All right.

294
00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.260
 Well, so there's a couple of things there too that I would like to

295
00:16:45.260 --> 00:16:45.500
 address.

296
00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:49.140
 Number one, how do we know who is actually credible?

297
00:16:49.260 --> 00:16:52.580
 And the example that you gave, I mean, it's easier if it's something

298
00:16:52.580 --> 00:16:55.920
 that's being reported as a crime, for example, cause then you could

299
00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:58.800
 look at, you know, figures of authority within law enforcement or

300
00:16:58.800 --> 00:16:59.080
 whatever.

301
00:16:59.140 --> 00:17:01.340
 Also talking about the victim, given their side of the story,

302
00:17:01.880 --> 00:17:04.980
 anybody who's directly involved in the incident would be credible.

303
00:17:05.260 --> 00:17:05.319
 Right?

304
00:17:05.760 --> 00:17:08.319
 But when we're talking politics, that's a little bit harder because

305
00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:11.359
 I don't think either side is ever going to want to tell you the

306
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:11.599
 truth.

307
00:17:11.660 --> 00:17:13.480
 They're going to try to tell you what you want to hear.

308
00:17:13.540 --> 00:17:16.400
 As you said, they want to, they want to basically affirm your bias

309
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.920
 because, and when it comes to news, you just wait to keep an audience

310
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.619
 or any media is to what?

311
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:23.579
 Make the person feel good about what they believe.

312
00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:26.160
 They're just going to keep feeding that rhetoric and that BS to those

313
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:27.020
 people to keep them.

314
00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:34.100
 So how are we able to even qualify who is considered a good source,

315
00:17:34.100 --> 00:17:37.600
 for example, especially, especially the example you gave earlier.

316
00:17:38.360 --> 00:17:38.600
 Okay.

317
00:17:38.600 --> 00:17:41.380
 So let's take the example of the, uh, the fight over the TSA.

318
00:17:41.600 --> 00:17:44.360
 I mean, whatever anybody's opinions are of any of the people I'm

319
00:17:44.360 --> 00:17:48.360
 going to mention, but I mean, look, if you get a credible, uh,

320
00:17:48.560 --> 00:17:51.200
 democratic Congress, if you get Hakeem Jeffries, who has been

321
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.140
 involved in these negotiations and you get his take on it or Chuck

322
00:17:54.140 --> 00:17:57.920
 Schumer, and then you get the president or you get a Mike Johnson.

323
00:17:59.060 --> 00:18:02.080
 Whatever your personal opinion about them is these are the people who

324
00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:05.820
 are in the room, who are in the know who can represent their party.

325
00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:12.460
 Well, if you go to Marjorie Taylor green or Tucker Carlson, you're

326
00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:16.720
 going to get an outlier opinion that may not be very reflective of

327
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.060
 the conservative point of view.

328
00:18:18.060 --> 00:18:26.020
 If you go to Omar, or if you go to, uh, um, God, I just forgot the name.

329
00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:27.800
 What is the name of that influencer?

330
00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:30.300
 Hi, uh, the guy who just went to Cuba.

331
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.260
 Hiker Hassan, I'm sorry, Hassan piker.

332
00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:35.120
 Thank you.

333
00:18:35.320 --> 00:18:35.500
 Right.

334
00:18:35.600 --> 00:18:39.720
 So, you know, if you're going to go get your bite from them, you

335
00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.540
 know, the average viewer, if you're on Fox news and on one side, you

336
00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:45.660
 have Mike Johnson on the other side, you have Hassan piker, but you're

337
00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:49.180
 going to walk away thinking, wow, they really are, you know, those

338
00:18:49.180 --> 00:18:50.300
 Democrats really are.

339
00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:54.420
 So I think it's, it's a matter of intent.

340
00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:55.760
 It's a matter of credibility.

341
00:18:55.840 --> 00:19:00.040
 And then if you are going to try to play the referee, you've got to

342
00:19:00.040 --> 00:19:01.980
 be really fair and really careful.

343
00:19:03.020 --> 00:19:05.880
 Is, uh, you know, when you talk to Hakeem Jeffries and he makes

344
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:11.380
 a claim about the negotiations, is it all accurate based on what we're

345
00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:14.740
 seeing as far as what they're fighting over same with the

346
00:19:14.740 --> 00:19:18.900
 public insider, you're holding both accountable to the same standards,

347
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:19.420
 right?

348
00:19:19.420 --> 00:19:23.580
 Which is another problem that we've run into because, um, yeah, just

349
00:19:23.580 --> 00:19:28.000
 to give an example, like in 2024, when you had the Trump Kamala

350
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:33.880
 Harris debate, uh, mostly rightly, I think the moderators in that

351
00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.820
 debate called out Trump a few times when, you know, he's been known

352
00:19:36.820 --> 00:19:42.020
 to exaggerate and, uh, but Kamala had said four or five things that

353
00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:46.040
 were, uh, just objectively untrue and they were never called out.

354
00:19:46.520 --> 00:19:50.360
 So you have to hold both sides to the same standard and that's objectivity.

355
00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:52.280
 Yeah, understood.

356
00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:57.080
 Uh, the reason I asked that question, um, was because we're talking

357
00:19:57.080 --> 00:20:01.100
 about, but when you made the statement earlier, um, how you

358
00:20:01.100 --> 00:20:04.860
 were told like, well, the audience has been conditioned, okay.

359
00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:08.540
 I believe that people have been conditioned to not believe anybody

360
00:20:08.540 --> 00:20:12.080
 and see them as like an uncredible source anyway.

361
00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:16.120
 And so I think it lends back to like, how do we, how do we retrain

362
00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:21.880
 people, for example, to, to understand, um, how to view something

363
00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:24.320
 as credible versus uncredible or not credible.

364
00:20:25.060 --> 00:20:27.740
 Um, and your explanation, I completely understand, especially

365
00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:30.900
 from someone who was like a journalist who was going to pick these

366
00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:34.420
 individuals, ask credible sources, give them, you know, both air, so

367
00:20:34.420 --> 00:20:35.560
 to speak, say, here's your side.

368
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:37.180
 Here's, here's the other person's side.

369
00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:42.040
 And I get that it, but I guess I was more asking as far as, well, how

370
00:20:42.040 --> 00:20:45.540
 do we, how do we get the audience back on board to being able to decipher?

371
00:20:46.520 --> 00:20:49.360
 Like that person is a credible representative, for example, the

372
00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:52.940
 Democrat party versus the Republican party or, uh, whatnot.

373
00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:56.180
 I think that's more where I was trying to go with it because

374
00:20:56.180 --> 00:20:57.800
 it seems like, go ahead.

375
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.440
 I think they just have to trust the source and, and, and

376
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:05.280
 the mainstream media lost the, I mean, in the book I talk about

377
00:21:05.280 --> 00:21:08.320
 during the writing in the summer of 2020, you know, one of the first

378
00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:12.240
 things you're taught when you get into a newsroom and you're a young,

379
00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:18.880
 aspiring, uh, journalist is especially, I mean, explicitly for broadcast

380
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.080
 journalism, you're taught that the pictures are paramount, so you

381
00:21:22.080 --> 00:21:26.720
 don't write a script and then try to find video, you look at the

382
00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:28.460
 video you have and write to it.

383
00:21:28.540 --> 00:21:30.740
 Sounds really obvious, but it makes a big difference in the

384
00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:32.120
 way you put together footage.

385
00:21:32.780 --> 00:21:36.740
 I went to Vanderbilt university and they record all the newscasts.

386
00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:39.360
 And I spent a week there just watching so much of this coverage.

387
00:21:39.940 --> 00:21:45.120
 And what I was struck by was so many times that there were

388
00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:47.480
 just images of absolute chaos.

389
00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:49.400
 It was like apocalyptic.

390
00:21:49.580 --> 00:21:54.860
 Fires are burning, uh, routs, riot rioters are throwing stuff at

391
00:21:54.860 --> 00:21:59.960
 police and you always had this live shot, this reporter who'd be

392
00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:04.640
 in front of these scenes, fighting his own footage and saying, just

393
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:07.380
 so you know, these protests have mostly been peaceful, right?

394
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:10.020
 And so, you know, that's a credibility killer.

395
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.260
 It's Orwellian, do not believe your eyes.

396
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.740
 And so the audience isn't stupid.

397
00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:19.900
 Now, Jeremy Boring, who was, uh, you know, uh, part of the

398
00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:21.840
 Ben Shapiro empire for a while.

399
00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:25.720
 And I gave an interview recently and I thought he made a great point.

400
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.520
 When people are able to convince you and to show you that you've been

401
00:22:30.520 --> 00:22:34.380
 lied to, it's very powerful and people can believe in them.

402
00:22:34.520 --> 00:22:37.820
 The problem is that a lot of these alternative sources are even worse.

403
00:22:39.080 --> 00:22:43.140
 So I would say, look, I don't know that, uh, Candice Owen

404
00:22:43.140 --> 00:22:44.320
 to owes anything to anyone.

405
00:22:44.600 --> 00:22:48.120
 She's she's on her own trip, but I would say that if somebody's

406
00:22:48.120 --> 00:22:51.740
 trying to get their news from her, they're better off watching, uh, NBC.

407
00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:56.240
 Having said that, NBC has done a lot to destroy its own credibility.

408
00:22:57.300 --> 00:22:59.060
 And how do we get it back?

409
00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:04.240
 We get it back by it's going to take time, but if we start getting to

410
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:09.600
 the point where reporters aren't agenda driven, where they're seeking

411
00:23:09.600 --> 00:23:13.680
 the truth and only the truth, they'll always be politicians and corporate

412
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.660
 leaders who complain about that because they're trying to get one over.

413
00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:21.720
 But if the public starts trusting that this is not a partisan game,

414
00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.560
 media is there to tell you the truth, to hold truth, to power,

415
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:27.680
 to hold people accountable.

416
00:23:27.740 --> 00:23:30.200
 That's the role that it's supposed to play in this society.

417
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:33.420
 Over time, I think they will trust.

418
00:23:34.100 --> 00:23:35.900
 They start regaining trust, right?

419
00:23:35.900 --> 00:23:36.880
 It's like a bad relationship.

420
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:43.900
 And so if you have a story about a fight over, uh, over the federal

421
00:23:43.900 --> 00:23:48.880
 budget and TSA employees who aren't getting paid, um, and that's

422
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.520
 the longest roundabout way to answer your question from 10 minutes ago.

423
00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:55.960
 But I mean, if that's the case, then I think people just trust them, right?

424
00:23:55.980 --> 00:24:00.100
 If you, if you trust the source that it's coming from, you're not going

425
00:24:00.100 --> 00:24:03.320
 to question every single story that comes out of their mouth, but

426
00:24:03.320 --> 00:24:09.000
 because you've had eight years of cases being cherry picked, uh,

427
00:24:09.100 --> 00:24:13.720
 reporters, uh, standing in front of, uh, burning buildings and telling

428
00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:20.380
 you everything's fine, of, uh, refusing to question, uh, COVID mandates

429
00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:24.360
 and even ask any tough questions with people in power, just years

430
00:24:24.360 --> 00:24:28.200
 of eroding that trust, it's going to take just that long to get it back.

431
00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:29.420
 Right.

432
00:24:30.520 --> 00:24:31.280
 I think I'm with you on that.

433
00:24:31.300 --> 00:24:35.260
 And unfortunately, when you brought up alternative media, um, we do

434
00:24:35.260 --> 00:24:39.260
 have too many alternative media personalities that are giving people,

435
00:24:39.620 --> 00:24:42.020
 you know, I'll just throw myself in there that are trying to make

436
00:24:42.020 --> 00:24:44.400
 their own way in this space, kind of a bad name.

437
00:24:44.520 --> 00:24:46.560
 Now you see everywhere where people are going, oh, it's just another

438
00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:48.520
 one of those podcasters, right?

439
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.760
 They're starting to lose faith in these bigger personalities who

440
00:24:51.760 --> 00:24:55.140
 are giving others, you know, a credibility issue at this point

441
00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:56.400
 because of how they're acting.

442
00:24:56.840 --> 00:24:59.020
 There's no truth in media, it seems, in the alternative

443
00:24:59.020 --> 00:25:01.820
 media anymore, um, which is unfortunate.

444
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:03.220
 What you said is correct.

445
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:03.480
 Okay.

446
00:25:03.560 --> 00:25:06.960
 So in my circle, people in my circle within the podcast industry

447
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.500
 and also other people I know that are, um, I do know journalists, authors

448
00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:13.500
 and people in the Intel, um, community.

449
00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:18.140
 So the people that I surround myself with actually are looking

450
00:25:18.140 --> 00:25:21.240
 for real sources that they can trust real news outlets.

451
00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:23.580
 I don't believe everybody is really trying to look for

452
00:25:23.580 --> 00:25:24.540
 what makes them feel good.

453
00:25:24.620 --> 00:25:28.300
 I mean, I get that some just, I think at this point, some of

454
00:25:28.300 --> 00:25:29.620
 the news that people are looking for, they're not really looking

455
00:25:29.620 --> 00:25:30.920
 for news or looking for entertainment.

456
00:25:31.080 --> 00:25:32.740
 It's a certain brand of entertainment that they're

457
00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:34.100
 attaching themselves to, right?

458
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:37.180
 That they just want to hear them the sensationalism.

459
00:25:37.540 --> 00:25:40.200
 And when you brought up Candice Owen, she's a perfect example of that.

460
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.640
 She sensationalizes everything.

461
00:25:41.780 --> 00:25:44.700
 She turns everything into like a Nancy Drew story or whatever, like some

462
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:48.460
 weird investigative, you know, juvenile novel that keeps you kind of hooked

463
00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:49.440
 to where you're like, oh, what's next?

464
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:50.220
 Oh, next podcast.

465
00:25:50.300 --> 00:25:52.060
 I'm going to hear this next truth, so to speak.

466
00:25:52.580 --> 00:25:54.800
 But there's, there's people like me and everyone in my circle that are

467
00:25:54.800 --> 00:25:57.600
 like, no, we just, we just want to be told what's going on.

468
00:25:57.740 --> 00:25:59.080
 We want facts and data.

469
00:25:59.180 --> 00:26:02.480
 We want it delivered so that we can make our own assessments

470
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:04.260
 form our own informed opinions.

471
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:08.480
 So I think that the road getting back, that there's a hunger for it.

472
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.920
 I think with your book coming out and you talking about a lot of things that

473
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:16.660
 you're saying right now and exposing, you know, the, the truths in the matter.

474
00:26:16.820 --> 00:26:20.020
 I really believe that people are wanting it to come back, Rob.

475
00:26:20.040 --> 00:26:20.680
 They really are.

476
00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:22.060
 They just don't know where to look.

477
00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:24.040
 I think right now we're in that trust issue period.

478
00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:26.500
 Like you said, you know, they, they don't know who they could trust yet.

479
00:26:26.580 --> 00:26:28.600
 They know what they're looking for, but they're not sure they can trust

480
00:26:28.600 --> 00:26:32.540
 that personality, for example, that is trying to deliver the truth quite

481
00:26:32.540 --> 00:26:35.640
 yet because maybe they're not as established or some of these guys are

482
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.060
 doing a 180, they realize what they're doing isn't working and they're like,

483
00:26:38.060 --> 00:26:40.280
 wait, I got to get back, you know, back to reality.

484
00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:44.140
 So, I mean, there's a, there's no way around it for the, for the consumer

485
00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:48.060
 of news, you're making a decision whether you know it or not.

486
00:26:48.060 --> 00:26:51.580
 So I'll give you an example of, let's just say the medical establishment.

487
00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:00.400
 So due to the influence of big pharma, due to some questionable dogma

488
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.960
 that came out of the COVID days, uh, you know, due to, uh, the

489
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.960
 relationship between big pharma and government, a lot of trust has been

490
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:12.420
 lost in the medical establishment.

491
00:27:13.020 --> 00:27:18.820
 Now, does that mean that every guy out there, every guy and woman out there

492
00:27:18.820 --> 00:27:23.020
 who's selling something on X or YouTube and claims to have the answer,

493
00:27:23.080 --> 00:27:27.980
 you know, pomegranates are going to cure your cancer, you know, like,

494
00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:29.720
 you know, and that goes back to the whole thing.

495
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:32.520
 If you're going to choose between Candace Owen and NBC, take NBC.

496
00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:37.420
 If you're going to choose between, um, you know, one of these quacks

497
00:27:38.040 --> 00:27:42.160
 or, uh, an establishment doctor, I would still go with an establishment doctor.

498
00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:47.720
 But it's, uh, to me, it's up to the institutions, right?

499
00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:52.100
 I mean, the whole world of YouTube and social media, I'm not expecting

500
00:27:52.100 --> 00:27:54.720
 a random person to necessarily be credible.

501
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:55.560
 They might be.

502
00:27:56.580 --> 00:27:56.720
 Right.

503
00:27:56.820 --> 00:28:00.720
 But unless I have a relationship built with someone who's on a YouTube

504
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.500
 channel and I really trust them and maybe they have some credentials

505
00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.360
 or I've watched them for a bit, you know, I'm going to, I'm not going

506
00:28:07.360 --> 00:28:10.200
 to assume that the information they're passing along is correct.

507
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:15.340
 So I think it's much more important and much healthier for the country.

508
00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:19.280
 If at least the institutions, and in this case, I'm talking about

509
00:28:19.280 --> 00:28:22.860
 journalism can lay a foundation of truth so that we're all living

510
00:28:22.860 --> 00:28:25.660
 in the same reality, because the biggest thing that has happened

511
00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:28.500
 and the biggest reasons why I think there are really almost

512
00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:32.220
 irreconcilable differences between the two sides that are polarized

513
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:37.980
 in this country is you're not really having a debate about what

514
00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:39.900
 we should do about X problem.

515
00:28:40.280 --> 00:28:44.620
 We're having a debate about which reality we live in is climate

516
00:28:44.620 --> 00:28:48.060
 change, uh, an existential threat.

517
00:28:48.140 --> 00:28:50.740
 And, uh, and if we don't get our hands around it in the

518
00:28:50.740 --> 00:28:52.300
 next two or three years, we're doomed.

519
00:28:52.820 --> 00:28:55.460
 Or is it a hoax or is it somewhere in the middle?

520
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:56.400
 Right.

521
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:02.380
 And, and I think, I think these are, these are issues that unless you

522
00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:08.520
 had a journalism that was able to deal with the gray areas of a complicated

523
00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:11.840
 issues like that, you have these kinds of polarizations.

524
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:12.840
 Okay.

525
00:29:13.540 --> 00:29:17.040
 So I'm going to say what I'm going to tell you what I always say.

526
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:19.140
 Um, there's a couple of things.

527
00:29:19.220 --> 00:29:22.740
 I think it's almost like we got to retrain the people to read past

528
00:29:22.740 --> 00:29:25.900
 headlines first, because a lot of people also just read a headline.

529
00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:27.540
 They just believe that is the truth of the matter.

530
00:29:27.540 --> 00:29:28.960
 And they don't even dive deeper into the article.

531
00:29:29.420 --> 00:29:33.120
 Uh, the other thing is, for example, watching a YouTube, but you don't know.

532
00:29:33.260 --> 00:29:33.400
 Yeah.

533
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:34.240
 I mean, I'm the same way.

534
00:29:34.340 --> 00:29:35.280
 It's like, well, who is this person?

535
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:35.600
 Right.

536
00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:39.660
 I think vetting the person you're watching or that, you know, new

537
00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.820
 source for a while is absolutely key.

538
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.320
 Most people don't have the patience to, I mean, we're dealing with

539
00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:47.880
 people who have 30 seconds at most in terms of their attention span.

540
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.380
 So it's like, you gotta, you gotta give them the information dump

541
00:29:50.380 --> 00:29:51.360
 within the first five seconds.

542
00:29:51.360 --> 00:29:53.380
 And then if you don't, they've already moved on.

543
00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:55.960
 So it's, it's going to be an uphill battle.

544
00:29:56.380 --> 00:29:57.400
 And I, and I, I agree with you.

545
00:29:57.520 --> 00:30:00.280
 I think traditional journalists, credentialed journalists, if we're

546
00:30:00.280 --> 00:30:04.480
 talking legacy, legacy media needs to get back to, um, set, you know,

547
00:30:04.800 --> 00:30:08.540
 setting that foundation again and, and, and setting the bar as to which

548
00:30:08.540 --> 00:30:11.860
 all others should be judged by going back to just telling the truth, the

549
00:30:11.860 --> 00:30:15.720
 truth being whatever the actual story is, just, just remove, remove your

550
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.140
 bias, get it out there and that people make their own decisions.

551
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:22.760
 But we also just can't accept sloppy journalism either.

552
00:30:22.760 --> 00:30:25.220
 You know, and I've seen that as well.

553
00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:28.520
 I, I, I can take, I'm one of those deep dive guys.

554
00:30:29.040 --> 00:30:30.180
 I'll, I'll, I'll look at a story.

555
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.660
 I'll take about three or four different stories and I'm not

556
00:30:32.660 --> 00:30:33.940
 just going to believe each one.

557
00:30:33.980 --> 00:30:34.660
 I'm going to read them.

558
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.280
 I'm going to go and look at, okay, who's the most, who's consistent,

559
00:30:38.580 --> 00:30:41.220
 the most, do they all corroborate?

560
00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:45.620
 Do they all end up giving me the same, you know, outcome in

561
00:30:45.620 --> 00:30:48.720
 terms of the story, as in everything they're saying ends up being true

562
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.200
 because A plus B equals C in every single story.

563
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.100
 For example, now there might be bias in there, but in the end, are

564
00:30:55.100 --> 00:30:56.900
 they all telling the story?

565
00:30:57.060 --> 00:31:00.580
 Are they still at some, in some point, given me the truth, you

566
00:31:00.580 --> 00:31:03.900
 can manipulate the bias of anything just by changing the wording on something.

567
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.040
 You know, you can have a left leaning story by saying something a

568
00:31:07.040 --> 00:31:09.740
 certain way versus a right leaning story, but in the end, I don't

569
00:31:09.740 --> 00:31:11.160
 care if it's left or right.

570
00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:15.480
 Tell me what happened and, and give me the details in between.

571
00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:17.380
 So, but a lot of it is emphasis.

572
00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:19.380
 A lot of it is that right.

573
00:31:19.560 --> 00:31:20.080
 Exactly.

574
00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:25.200
 I write about in the book, uh, at the end of Ferguson, Eric Holder,

575
00:31:25.520 --> 00:31:30.760
 Barack Obama's progressive attorney general puts out a report on what

576
00:31:30.760 --> 00:31:35.460
 happened in Ferguson with Michael Brown in quite good detail.

577
00:31:36.320 --> 00:31:39.720
 He basically dismantles the entire activist argument about

578
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:40.860
 what happened to Michael Brown.

579
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:42.240
 There was no hands up, don't shoot.

580
00:31:42.260 --> 00:31:43.540
 He was not shot from behind.

581
00:31:43.540 --> 00:31:47.640
 He did, uh, physical evidence did show that he went in and punched the

582
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:49.840
 officer, Darrell Wilson, a couple of times.

583
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:53.680
 And, uh, basically they said there was no evidence that, uh, it

584
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:55.180
 wasn't a justifiable shooting.

585
00:31:55.780 --> 00:32:01.340
 They also said in the same report that they found systemic issues within

586
00:32:01.340 --> 00:32:04.940
 the Ferguson police department, uh, that the department had too many

587
00:32:04.940 --> 00:32:08.660
 people from out of town, not representative of the community.

588
00:32:09.120 --> 00:32:09.180
 Okay.

589
00:32:09.180 --> 00:32:14.860
 But then I watched those newscasts at night and, uh, was taking notes on it.

590
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:21.200
 All of them started off with explosive report from, uh, from attorney

591
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:25.140
 general Eric Holder, pointing out to systemic racism in the

592
00:32:25.140 --> 00:32:26.180
 Ferguson police department.

593
00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:30.300
 And maybe one line slipped in there about, Hey, by the way, that

594
00:32:30.300 --> 00:32:34.160
 whole Michael Brown story that we've been blowing on for a year and

595
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.140
 watching the city burn itself.

596
00:32:35.260 --> 00:32:36.540
 Yeah, that, that was wrong.

597
00:32:36.540 --> 00:32:39.920
 But that's a matter of emphasis, right?

598
00:32:40.020 --> 00:32:42.040
 I mean, to me, the headline is for sure.

599
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:45.740
 This officer, if you're, if you're seeking the truth, this

600
00:32:45.740 --> 00:32:49.360
 officer was exonerated, like he had been, he wasn't hiding at that point.

601
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:53.640
 This officer has been exonerated by, uh, this, this report.

602
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:56.240
 It turns out that the activists were not correct.

603
00:32:56.560 --> 00:32:59.180
 It does turn out that this was a justifiable shooting.

604
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:01.580
 And by the way, that doesn't mean that the Ferguson police

605
00:33:01.580 --> 00:33:04.680
 department doesn't have issues because the report also did state

606
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:06.240
 that there were some systemic problems.

607
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:11.260
 That's a fair, balanced account of the story, but that's not what people got.

608
00:33:11.620 --> 00:33:15.320
 And so I talked to people who are pretty well educated and I asked them,

609
00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:21.320
 you know, do you know that, um, that the, it was found ultimately, um, by

610
00:33:21.320 --> 00:33:25.840
 Barack Obama's attorney general, that Darrell Wilson was justified

611
00:33:25.840 --> 00:33:27.060
 in shooting Michael Brown.

612
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:28.800
 No, where did you get that?

613
00:33:28.900 --> 00:33:30.320
 What did he watch Fox news?

614
00:33:30.380 --> 00:33:31.100
 Where did you hear that?

615
00:33:31.760 --> 00:33:35.820
 So, you know, that's, that's where the trust has gone, right?

616
00:33:35.820 --> 00:33:37.580
 Because they didn't lie.

617
00:33:38.140 --> 00:33:41.080
 The story did, they, they just included the part of the story

618
00:33:41.080 --> 00:33:42.300
 that they wanted to talk about.

619
00:33:42.780 --> 00:33:43.020
 Well, true.

620
00:33:43.020 --> 00:33:43.380
 Okay.

621
00:33:43.560 --> 00:33:45.520
 That is very true, but it also goes back to what I said.

622
00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:47.480
 People don't, people live on the surface of information.

623
00:33:47.580 --> 00:33:48.680
 They don't get past the headline.

624
00:33:49.040 --> 00:33:52.760
 So in this case, you have, let's say if it's CNN versus Fox, right.

625
00:33:53.420 --> 00:33:54.460
 Um, that headline is a hook.

626
00:33:54.740 --> 00:33:58.400
 They know which audience they're trying to hook right, right from the

627
00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:59.660
 outset, that's, that's what it is.

628
00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:02.920
 Like they're, they know that they want the left leaning audience over here

629
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:04.480
 and they want the right leaning audience over there.

630
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:10.199
 Where I have issue is I think that they need to have, they need to be more

631
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:16.480
 responsible, it's clear that, that most broadcast news outlets or we're

632
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:19.540
 just talking journalism, they, you can clearly see if they pick the side.

633
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:24.239
 I, I'm not sure how we're going to get people to get away from that and,

634
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:26.620
 and get back to what you're talking about, which is just basically

635
00:34:26.620 --> 00:34:29.260
 delivering the news, like the old Walter Cronkite type thing, right?

636
00:34:29.560 --> 00:34:30.739
 But it's not working for them.

637
00:34:31.120 --> 00:34:34.000
 It's not, I mean, the whole point is, you know,

638
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.820
 it's one thing when, if you're Fox or MSNOW, and that's why I say,

639
00:34:38.120 --> 00:34:41.620
 eliminate them, they are going to be news for the already converted.

640
00:34:42.219 --> 00:34:46.080
 But I think most of the other mainstream sources are really

641
00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:48.699
 hurting and have lost more than half their audience.

642
00:34:49.080 --> 00:34:54.500
 So it's not working and they're doubling down on failure because

643
00:34:54.500 --> 00:34:56.159
 they've, because people don't believe them.

644
00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:59.720
 So tell the story, go back to real journalism.

645
00:34:59.860 --> 00:35:01.040
 It's more interesting anyway.

646
00:35:01.040 --> 00:35:05.160
 And why, why are you doubling down on something that's just not working?

647
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.780
 Because look, NBC is not MSNOW.

648
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:11.760
 There's a bias and it's an obvious bias.

649
00:35:12.680 --> 00:35:18.760
 But if you really just want a daily dose of Republicans suck,

650
00:35:19.080 --> 00:35:20.080
 you're going to watch MSNOW.

651
00:35:20.080 --> 00:35:21.600
 You're not really going to get that on NBC.

652
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:26.520
 And if you really want a dose of, you know, Democrats are trying

653
00:35:26.520 --> 00:35:28.240
 to undermine this country, you're going to watch Fox.

654
00:35:28.240 --> 00:35:32.760
 You're not, you know, or maybe Newsmax, if the Fox isn't doing it enough for you.

655
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:39.060
 So I think that, you know, for all of the other outlets, I mean,

656
00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:41.380
 look at the daily newspapers and how they're dying.

657
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:44.180
 And I understand there are other forces at work here.

658
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:48.660
 But part of it is self-inflicted.

659
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.380
 Part of it is the fact that people just don't believe them anymore.

660
00:35:52.720 --> 00:35:54.560
 And you're in the business in journalism.

661
00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:55.920
 You're in the business of trust.

662
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.820
 Once you've lost that, you don't, you don't have much else.

663
00:36:00.120 --> 00:36:00.300
 Yeah.

664
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:01.100
 No, you're right.

665
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:05.600
 Speaking of news outlets that are trying to turn the corner to CBS lately

666
00:36:05.600 --> 00:36:07.620
 has gotten a lot better, I've noticed.

667
00:36:08.740 --> 00:36:08.860
 Yeah.

668
00:36:08.900 --> 00:36:12.720
 Well, Barry Weiss, I do talk about her in the book a little bit.

669
00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:16.280
 So she left the New York Times and wrote a big open letter about why she left.

670
00:36:16.520 --> 00:36:18.560
 And she made a really important point.

671
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:21.280
 They work backwards.

672
00:36:21.600 --> 00:36:22.880
 They start with their conclusion.

673
00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:23.880
 They already know.

674
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:31.160
 And now they are trying to find evidence to support that and to convert people

675
00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:36.700
 as opposed to simply telling the story and seeing where things lead.

676
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.440
 So yeah, she went and did the Free Press, which I subscribed to,

677
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:45.220
 which is a great little kind of substacks, sort of little newspaper.

678
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:47.380
 And now she's at CBS.

679
00:36:47.460 --> 00:36:53.020
 So look, I hope I spend years at CBS

680
00:36:53.020 --> 00:36:57.720
 and I would love to see it reform itself.

681
00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:01.420
 And it's not going without a fight because you see people are so conditioned

682
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:08.980
 to one-sided journalism that there are a lot of people who are internally at CBS

683
00:37:08.980 --> 00:37:13.280
 and also pundits who are just hoping this fails.

684
00:37:13.820 --> 00:37:17.360
 And they're looking to trip her up at every step of the way.

685
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.460
 And I'm one of those people that are absolutely on your side and all this.

686
00:37:21.460 --> 00:37:23.960
 I am tired of the people.

687
00:37:24.100 --> 00:37:25.100
 It's team sports.

688
00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:28.500
 They're trying to see which team is going to win, get more points, really.

689
00:37:28.900 --> 00:37:29.820
 Same thing in politics.

690
00:37:30.660 --> 00:37:33.980
 And I just want the freaking info.

691
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:35.520
 That's all I want.

692
00:37:36.300 --> 00:37:37.520
 I don't need to be swayed.

693
00:37:37.520 --> 00:37:38.800
 I don't need you to try to convince me.

694
00:37:39.040 --> 00:37:39.580
 I'll be honest.

695
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:42.000
 I used to have a sales rep company.

696
00:37:42.100 --> 00:37:43.040
 You're not going to sell me.

697
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:44.480
 I can see right through it.

698
00:37:45.260 --> 00:37:47.900
 And the thing is, I want the information.

699
00:37:48.040 --> 00:37:49.280
 I think people are ready for that, too.

700
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:51.940
 People want to get back to trusting the media.

701
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:54.620
 They want to get back to trusting traditional journalists.

702
00:37:54.860 --> 00:37:56.580
 And unfortunately, like you said, they did lose that trust.

703
00:37:56.760 --> 00:37:59.720
 And we thought that people thought they're going to get that in alternative media.

704
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:02.840
 Now you saw Tucker's like, oh, now I'm independent.

705
00:38:02.900 --> 00:38:05.320
 I'm going to go do my own thing, have my own podcast, come to find out later.

706
00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:07.780
 Well, Fox actually bought the company that put your show out.

707
00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:10.660
 So kind of still work for Fox.

708
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.880
 And unfortunately, now the alternative media is starting to lose credibility.

709
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:21.380
 But we also got to discuss that the alternative media is not really alternative anymore because

710
00:38:21.380 --> 00:38:24.840
 all these so-called journalists, I'm going to say that, not to offend you,

711
00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:27.200
 but some of them are pseudo journalists, in my opinion,

712
00:38:27.820 --> 00:38:30.420
 have moved on from their broadcast network shows because they weren't

713
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:33.420
 getting the ratings anymore, infiltrated alternative media.

714
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:36.520
 And now with their experience and the money behind them,

715
00:38:36.520 --> 00:38:40.700
 they're taking it over and turning it into exactly what they did in legacy media,

716
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:42.220
 which is horrifying.

717
00:38:42.220 --> 00:38:47.040
 So we have a long road to go to gain people's trust back.

718
00:38:47.680 --> 00:38:49.600
 I think it's really going to be about consistency.

719
00:38:50.160 --> 00:38:53.280
 Like you said earlier, people just have to be consistent in delivering the truth

720
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.280
 and telling the story as the story actually is.

721
00:38:56.700 --> 00:38:58.980
 And I think over time, people will begin to trust certain sources.

722
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.440
 And hopefully that spreads to everybody else,

723
00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:06.760
 everybody else being wanting to be able to deliver the news and the story as it should be.

724
00:39:08.520 --> 00:39:11.540
 George, maybe we disagree on this, but I think like,

725
00:39:12.540 --> 00:39:15.640
 to me, I don't hold alternative media to the same standard because

726
00:39:16.420 --> 00:39:20.360
 to me, alternative media would be like, I'm going into a town square

727
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:24.120
 and there are a bunch of people with bullhorns talking and one person's telling

728
00:39:24.120 --> 00:39:26.280
 me the world's going to end on such and such a date.

729
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:27.760
 So I kind of like brush that off.

730
00:39:27.820 --> 00:39:30.120
 Another one's telling me, you know, Jesus is coming.

731
00:39:30.680 --> 00:39:32.140
 This is your chance to repent.

732
00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:33.700
 I kind of brush that off.

733
00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.300
 Another one maybe is making some good points.

734
00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:40.180
 Maybe another one is, I don't know, saying that

735
00:39:40.940 --> 00:39:43.660
 the Chinese Communist Party is something we want to emulate.

736
00:39:43.700 --> 00:39:44.500
 Who knows, right?

737
00:39:44.660 --> 00:39:46.360
 So to me, you know, you go to a town square,

738
00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:48.040
 people are exercising their free speech.

739
00:39:48.220 --> 00:39:49.120
 It's messy.

740
00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:52.380
 It could be the homeless guy who's ranting and raving.

741
00:39:52.560 --> 00:39:54.200
 I'm not holding them to any standard.

742
00:39:54.740 --> 00:39:57.740
 The difference is you're talking about the New York Times.

743
00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:59.100
 You're talking about CBS News.

744
00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:03.420
 These are the ones that we should be able to trust.

745
00:40:04.300 --> 00:40:07.920
 And look, citizen journalists who can consistently,

746
00:40:08.040 --> 00:40:10.300
 and I think some of them do a good job.

747
00:40:10.720 --> 00:40:11.220
 Like, I don't know.

748
00:40:11.260 --> 00:40:13.500
 One that just comes to mind is Andy Ngo.

749
00:40:13.780 --> 00:40:14.840
 I don't know if you followed him.

750
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:20.760
 He was doing a good job documenting a lot of the Antifa stuff at a time

751
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:25.520
 when the official position of the mainstream media and Democrats

752
00:40:25.520 --> 00:40:28.520
 was that it was a figment of conservatives' imagination.

753
00:40:28.720 --> 00:40:30.880
 And yet every day he was showing them.

754
00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:34.780
 And so I thought that was good citizen reporting, right?

755
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.500
 But he's got a niche, and he's doing that.

756
00:40:38.580 --> 00:40:41.240
 He's not trying to tell you what's happening in the Ukraine War.

757
00:40:42.240 --> 00:40:45.800
 So I think citizen journalists have a role.

758
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:50.340
 If there's a little piece of something that they can credibly do that they understand,

759
00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:52.020
 I think that's important.

760
00:40:52.040 --> 00:40:55.380
 Or if they can show footage of things that maybe are inconvenient,

761
00:40:55.640 --> 00:40:58.680
 that someone's out in Iran during these demonstrations

762
00:40:58.680 --> 00:40:59.920
 and they're getting video out.

763
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:02.120
 That's really important for us to see.

764
00:41:03.640 --> 00:41:07.480
 Do I consider Tucker Carlson part of that?

765
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:07.940
 I don't.

766
00:41:08.100 --> 00:41:09.500
 I mean, to me, he was always a pundit.

767
00:41:09.700 --> 00:41:10.620
 He's not a journalist.

768
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:14.640
 And I think he's losing credibility as a pundit every day.

769
00:41:15.240 --> 00:41:16.820
 But that's punditry, right?

770
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:21.660
 So there's a big difference between news blocks and punditry.

771
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:28.140
 And I think that also has gotten kind of mushed together.

772
00:41:28.140 --> 00:41:32.840
 And because of that, it's easy for people to conflate the two.

773
00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:38.860
 So if you have Lawrence O'Donnell doing a show,

774
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:40.440
 that's very different from the news block.

775
00:41:40.780 --> 00:41:42.120
 He's just there to give opinion.

776
00:41:43.080 --> 00:41:43.700
 Yeah, but okay.

777
00:41:43.740 --> 00:41:44.940
 So let me push back on that.

778
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:50.600
 How did the New York Times and all its legacy media or news outlets become credible?

779
00:41:51.520 --> 00:41:52.460
 Time and consistency.

780
00:41:52.720 --> 00:41:54.020
 They've been out for a very long time.

781
00:41:54.040 --> 00:41:56.280
 They're known for being that thing, the news.

782
00:41:56.280 --> 00:41:58.300
 But if you want to go back further,

783
00:41:58.620 --> 00:42:02.440
 we can talk about how William Randolph Hearst manipulated news and media outlets

784
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:05.320
 by buying most of them up to push his agenda and narrative.

785
00:42:06.060 --> 00:42:07.640
 It was total manipulation of the media,

786
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:11.220
 but yet people still trusted these news sources because they were established.

787
00:42:11.720 --> 00:42:14.680
 And I hold alternative media to a different standard because of this.

788
00:42:15.860 --> 00:42:18.420
 It is alternative media being the key word,

789
00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:19.640
 which means it could be anything.

790
00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:20.680
 It could be entertainment.

791
00:42:20.900 --> 00:42:23.660
 It could be leisure stories, podcasts, whatever it is.

792
00:42:23.660 --> 00:42:29.120
 But for those who claim to be people that tell the news, political commentators, etc.,

793
00:42:29.120 --> 00:42:30.720
 I believe they do have a responsibility.

794
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:35.360
 Those particular people who are trying to sell themselves as truth tellers

795
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:36.480
 should be held accountable.

796
00:42:37.100 --> 00:42:41.500
 I'm not saying everything in alternative media should be under that same banner, right?

797
00:42:41.520 --> 00:42:43.920
 Because there's too many different segments.

798
00:42:44.240 --> 00:42:45.720
 It's not specifically news.

799
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:47.680
 You can't just say alternative media is just news because it's not.

800
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:51.980
 But those who are trying to portray themselves as being a newscast, for example,

801
00:42:51.980 --> 00:42:54.060
 or getting down to the bottom of the story,

802
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:58.680
 giving political opinions because allegedly they have an inside track on the story

803
00:42:58.680 --> 00:43:00.860
 or they have sources, those people should be held accountable.

804
00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:03.400
 To me, there's no difference between that and a newscaster.

805
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:05.540
 It's just a different way of broadcasting it.

806
00:43:06.040 --> 00:43:07.500
 Yeah, but I think there is a big difference.

807
00:43:07.560 --> 00:43:10.100
 There's no barrier to entry in alternative media.

808
00:43:10.940 --> 00:43:12.200
 You don't have to go to school.

809
00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:13.420
 You don't have to get hired.

810
00:43:15.300 --> 00:43:17.760
 So to me, it's back to the Times Square.

811
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:20.220
 I mean, there's a supermarket near me.

812
00:43:20.220 --> 00:43:23.120
 Of course, because I lived in Los Angeles, they're homeless in front.

813
00:43:23.640 --> 00:43:25.120
 They can say whatever they want.

814
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:28.740
 I don't hold them to the same standard as...

815
00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:33.040
 So it sounds like you don't expect it to be to the standards you're used to, really, right?

816
00:43:34.060 --> 00:43:37.040
 I think that it's good in certain aspects.

817
00:43:37.240 --> 00:43:42.000
 I think people who can take footage on the ground are doing a really good service, right?

818
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.960
 Whether it's in a war scenario or like Andy Ngo did with the Antifa.

819
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:50.480
 I think people who maybe are expertise on one level

820
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:52.840
 might find a following, and hopefully they're credible.

821
00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:56.360
 Well, but they don't like it.

822
00:43:56.600 --> 00:43:58.240
 Like, let's take medicine.

823
00:43:58.720 --> 00:43:59.720
 Let's take medicine, right?

824
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.700
 I think there was a lot of corruption in the world of medicine,

825
00:44:03.720 --> 00:44:07.300
 and we've seen it with some of the extremism with trans issues

826
00:44:07.300 --> 00:44:10.580
 and some of the COVID things.

827
00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:13.440
 We've seen it in a lot of ways and lost a lot of trust.

828
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:18.080
 But at least a doctor has to go through medical school and know all the body parts

829
00:44:20.200 --> 00:44:24.340
 and spend six years interning at a hospital.

830
00:44:24.580 --> 00:44:26.360
 There's a large barrier to entry.

831
00:44:26.620 --> 00:44:29.500
 The barrier to entry to declare yourself an expert on health

832
00:44:29.500 --> 00:44:32.240
 and open up a YouTube channel is to have a phone.

833
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:34.400
 And I just don't think it's the same, right?

834
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.560
 So you're going to have a lot more of a percentage of quacks out there

835
00:44:37.560 --> 00:44:41.260
 who are telling you something ridiculous or maybe even harmful for your health

836
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:46.360
 than doctors which, though flawed, still have to answer

837
00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:49.780
 and have to put in a lot of time before they got to the position

838
00:44:49.780 --> 00:44:52.560
 where they could tell you what they recommend.

839
00:44:55.100 --> 00:44:57.160
 Okay. I understand where you're coming from.

840
00:44:58.180 --> 00:45:00.680
 But doctors and journalists aren't the same.

841
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:02.620
 And I understand the barrier to entry.

842
00:45:02.760 --> 00:45:06.100
 And I understand being around a community that you can learn from and be corrected.

843
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.740
 And then you have things that you have to do

844
00:45:08.740 --> 00:45:10.100
 to be able to become an actual real journalist.

845
00:45:10.100 --> 00:45:11.580
 I don't put myself in that category, by the way.

846
00:45:11.620 --> 00:45:12.120
 I'm just talking.

847
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:15.400
 I'm just giving you the other side, just pushing back a bit.

848
00:45:16.420 --> 00:45:17.660
 But then I can make the other argument.

849
00:45:17.740 --> 00:45:22.020
 Now we get into like, okay, well, now we hold people with doctorates

850
00:45:22.020 --> 00:45:25.680
 above those who are blue collar to a different standard

851
00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:29.000
 because they went to school and spent six to eight years to get the degree.

852
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:31.020
 But yet the guy who owns a construction company

853
00:45:31.020 --> 00:45:33.880
 probably making four times more than the person with the degree is not respected.

854
00:45:35.020 --> 00:45:36.160
 That doesn't make sense to me.

855
00:45:36.520 --> 00:45:37.860
 No, I think it's clear.

856
00:45:37.860 --> 00:45:42.440
 Now we have to get back to what you were saying, which is very true.

857
00:45:42.940 --> 00:45:48.040
 Maybe we just need to hold the individual accountable, for example,

858
00:45:48.060 --> 00:45:50.680
 because there's newscasters that honestly are horrible.

859
00:45:51.600 --> 00:45:52.820
 No, they've obviously picked a side.

860
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:54.500
 They've obviously are pushing a narrative regardless.

861
00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:56.980
 And they've crossed all those barriers of entry

862
00:45:56.980 --> 00:45:59.040
 and they're given a show and they're pushed

863
00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:02.000
 and they're put on a pedal stool and they're horrible.

864
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:03.480
 So it's like-

865
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:07.420
 And George, just to be clear, to use the example that you just used,

866
00:46:08.160 --> 00:46:10.540
 I'm not saying that the guy who owns a construction company,

867
00:46:10.680 --> 00:46:11.500
 or even the guy who works on crew-

868
00:46:11.500 --> 00:46:12.420
 Oh, no, no, I didn't say I did.

869
00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:14.760
 I was just using that as an example

870
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:17.400
 because I thought it would be like an easy, relatable type of-

871
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.180
 But if I'm having dizzy spells and I fainted,

872
00:46:20.380 --> 00:46:24.240
 I still rather hear from the doctor than the guy in the crew.

873
00:46:24.600 --> 00:46:25.800
 Okay, right, so-

874
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:29.820
 I was just using that as an easy, relatable example for most people, is all.

875
00:46:30.160 --> 00:46:32.900
 Right, so I mean, I guess my only point is this,

876
00:46:33.240 --> 00:46:36.860
 and maybe in some ways we sound like we're disagreeing,

877
00:46:36.860 --> 00:46:38.380
 but we're kind of saying the same thing.

878
00:46:38.860 --> 00:46:45.520
 To me, the core issue is that institutional media

879
00:46:45.520 --> 00:46:48.560
 that has the resources to cover the entire world,

880
00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:50.700
 that have the eyeballs, that have the reach,

881
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:54.700
 they need to reform themselves

882
00:46:54.700 --> 00:46:58.220
 so that people can start trusting what they say again.

883
00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:03.140
 When they do, and we all live in basically the same reality,

884
00:47:03.540 --> 00:47:05.920
 we can have much better and healthier disagreements

885
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:09.120
 about what should be done if we all agree with what is.

886
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:13.380
 And because right now we don't even agree with facts on the ground,

887
00:47:13.520 --> 00:47:18.060
 we don't even agree on the most basic realities of the world we live in,

888
00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:21.760
 these differences are now breaking apart families,

889
00:47:22.040 --> 00:47:24.580
 breaking apart friendships and relationships

890
00:47:25.680 --> 00:47:28.720
 because instead of seeing that what's really happening

891
00:47:28.720 --> 00:47:34.180
 is that people are fighting because they are getting their information

892
00:47:34.180 --> 00:47:35.980
 from different corporate news sources,

893
00:47:36.500 --> 00:47:38.860
 they're making moral judgments about each other

894
00:47:38.860 --> 00:47:42.140
 because they're kind of being distorted and led to that point

895
00:47:42.140 --> 00:47:44.720
 where they believe that the other side is bad,

896
00:47:45.200 --> 00:47:48.120
 not that they're informed in a different way.

897
00:47:48.140 --> 00:47:50.120
 Yeah, and people aren't talking to each other anymore.

898
00:47:50.980 --> 00:47:57.020
 And I don't think independent journalism has much of a role to play in that

899
00:47:57.020 --> 00:47:59.320
 because whether we like it or not,

900
00:48:00.520 --> 00:48:05.220
 our information sources are still shaped by the major players.

901
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:07.040
 Yeah, for the most part.

902
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:12.140
 I use the analogy in the book.

903
00:48:12.500 --> 00:48:16.720
 Imagine a house, a glass house, this metaphorical glass house,

904
00:48:16.740 --> 00:48:18.140
 and it had four different views.

905
00:48:18.500 --> 00:48:22.400
 And then one of them, you're looking out in the backyard and it's beautiful.

906
00:48:22.680 --> 00:48:25.720
 It's a pool and it's a lush garden.

907
00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:28.400
 And in the front, it's like all these other nice houses.

908
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.720
 You're in a beautiful neighborhood, but you look out on one side

909
00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:32.820
 and it's like a broken down trailer park.

910
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.160
 And people have got the old rusty truck in the back there.

911
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.360
 And you look on the other side and it's boarded up strip mall.

912
00:48:41.680 --> 00:48:42.920
 The way that news works,

913
00:48:43.100 --> 00:48:46.180
 they put you in one quadrant of this metaphorical house

914
00:48:46.180 --> 00:48:47.500
 and that's the view you see.

915
00:48:48.220 --> 00:48:52.520
 So the person who's looking out on the boarded up strip mall

916
00:48:52.520 --> 00:48:56.100
 absolutely cannot understand why someone else is so optimistic

917
00:48:56.100 --> 00:48:57.760
 about the country and the future

918
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.000
 because they're looking out on that nice backyard.

919
00:49:01.160 --> 00:49:03.680
 And so that's the danger.

920
00:49:03.860 --> 00:49:07.120
 The danger is this unshared reality.

921
00:49:08.260 --> 00:49:12.520
 I go back to the issue of climate change.

922
00:49:12.680 --> 00:49:13.380
 That's the big one.

923
00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:14.940
 The anti-police movement.

924
00:49:15.560 --> 00:49:18.560
 It was very hard for people to talk to each other about it

925
00:49:18.560 --> 00:49:20.480
 because they had incomplete information.

926
00:49:20.600 --> 00:49:24.200
 If you were watching basic cable news

927
00:49:24.200 --> 00:49:27.480
 or if you were watching network news,

928
00:49:28.120 --> 00:49:29.940
 you really were being led to believe

929
00:49:29.940 --> 00:49:32.940
 like this is a historical moment of reckoning

930
00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:38.360
 because we are hunting people of color in our streets.

931
00:49:39.180 --> 00:49:41.420
 Here's an interesting, you may have heard this before.

932
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.720
 So they did a poll, I think it was in 2020.

933
00:49:45.120 --> 00:49:46.440
 And they asked people,

934
00:49:47.040 --> 00:49:48.980
 how many unarmed black men do you believe

935
00:49:48.980 --> 00:49:50.960
 had been killed by police in 2019?

936
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:54.000
 So people who identified as liberal to very liberal

937
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.600
 chose the category that was between 1,000 to 10,000.

938
00:49:58.600 --> 00:50:00.520
 Even those who were very conservative,

939
00:50:00.700 --> 00:50:02.900
 who identified as very conservative said 100.

940
00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:04.660
 Do you know what the actual number was?

941
00:50:04.980 --> 00:50:05.540
 I don't remember.

942
00:50:05.680 --> 00:50:07.220
 I remember this poll but I don't remember the number.

943
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:08.240
 14.

944
00:50:10.560 --> 00:50:12.120
 So that's a distortion.

945
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:17.040
 We knew the names of those 14 people or most of them.

946
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.380
 But did we know how low it was historically?

947
00:50:22.160 --> 00:50:25.820
 Did we know that, yes, these cases in their own rights

948
00:50:25.820 --> 00:50:28.260
 are often tragic, even though sometimes

949
00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:30.300
 the officer is found to be in the right,

950
00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:33.300
 like Darren Wilson, I think I called him Darryl earlier,

951
00:50:34.060 --> 00:50:35.280
 that they're found in the right.

952
00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:36.540
 But there was no context.

953
00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:38.500
 These stories were just brought up

954
00:50:38.500 --> 00:50:40.960
 and then just sensationalized

955
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:42.920
 and part of like a huge news block.

956
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:45.360
 And nobody was trying to contextualize them.

957
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:47.440
 Nobody was even allowing law enforcement

958
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:50.260
 to really make their own case.

959
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.580
 That became just outside of the Overton window.

960
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:55.900
 You couldn't even discuss it.

961
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:02.000
 So that's how dangerous I think that this landscape is.

962
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:03.200
 It's more than...

963
00:51:03.200 --> 00:51:04.760
 It was always sensationalist.

964
00:51:04.960 --> 00:51:05.440
 It always...

965
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:08.740
 Well, as soon as they figured they could make

966
00:51:08.740 --> 00:51:11.120
 a lot of money on it, it became sensationalist.

967
00:51:11.140 --> 00:51:12.980
 But you can make a lot of money on it without it.

968
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:15.160
 You don't have to kill your own credibility.

969
00:51:15.160 --> 00:51:16.680
 You can hype up a story.

970
00:51:17.020 --> 00:51:21.620
 There's a huge earthquake and dozens died.

971
00:51:22.940 --> 00:51:24.680
 The heartbreaking picture is coming up.

972
00:51:25.600 --> 00:51:26.200
 It's all true.

973
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:32.200
 Distorting news, leading people to a political opinion

974
00:51:32.200 --> 00:51:34.660
 does not have to be a part of doing

975
00:51:36.340 --> 00:51:38.460
 an exciting, interesting,

976
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:41.460
 and somewhat sensationalistic newscast.

977
00:51:41.620 --> 00:51:43.120
 This is a capitalist country.

978
00:51:43.120 --> 00:51:45.440
 They're trying to get the maximum amount of eyeballs.

979
00:51:45.560 --> 00:51:49.020
 I'm not arguing that they should not be sensationalist.

980
00:51:49.020 --> 00:51:50.600
 I'm just saying that it should be objective.

981
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:53.600
 Let's switch gears slightly, though.

982
00:51:55.180 --> 00:51:57.260
 Let's go down the road of why you think

983
00:51:57.780 --> 00:52:00.360
 most of these outlets chose to go down this path.

984
00:52:00.600 --> 00:52:02.560
 Because now what we're really looking at,

985
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:05.260
 what we're really discussing is controlling a narrative.

986
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.100
 For example, you're controlling the message

987
00:52:07.100 --> 00:52:07.920
 and pushing a narrative.

988
00:52:08.680 --> 00:52:10.280
 Not you, but just the media in general.

989
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:13.500
 Why would they choose, in your opinion,

990
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:16.480
 to get away from just telling the news and the truth

991
00:52:17.560 --> 00:52:20.880
 to pushing a certain narrative based on their perspective,

992
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:22.360
 based on which team they're on?

993
00:52:22.980 --> 00:52:25.300
 What happened that caused this, do you think?

994
00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:27.700
 Or why did they choose to go that way?

995
00:52:28.200 --> 00:52:29.860
 I think it was a slow...

996
00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:31.920
 I don't think they would ever admit

997
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.760
 that they went that way to begin with.

998
00:52:34.500 --> 00:52:36.740
 They will mostly insist that they didn't.

999
00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:39.500
 Even though I spoke to a lot of high-profile people

1000
00:52:39.500 --> 00:52:41.660
 I talked to in the book who do admit it.

1001
00:52:42.680 --> 00:52:44.480
 But I think part of what happened was

1002
00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:46.160
 the old-school journalists.

1003
00:52:46.420 --> 00:52:49.280
 If you went back, I started in 1991,

1004
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:50.820
 so I kind of bridged.

1005
00:52:51.140 --> 00:52:55.840
 I was one of the young Gen X MTV generation people

1006
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:57.420
 who was going to destroy news.

1007
00:52:58.040 --> 00:52:59.980
 And that's how the old-timers saw it.

1008
00:52:59.980 --> 00:53:01.520
 I mean, it turns out they were kind of right.

1009
00:53:03.200 --> 00:53:05.700
 But those were blue-collar guys.

1010
00:53:05.900 --> 00:53:07.780
 Most of them didn't have a college education.

1011
00:53:07.780 --> 00:53:09.520
 Walter Cronkite never finished college.

1012
00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:11.580
 They were blue-collar guys.

1013
00:53:11.780 --> 00:53:13.260
 They came from the newspaper world.

1014
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:14.460
 They were hard-scrabble.

1015
00:53:14.520 --> 00:53:17.180
 They had no problems asking a tough question

1016
00:53:17.180 --> 00:53:19.100
 of a governor, a mayor, a politician,

1017
00:53:20.260 --> 00:53:21.240
 CEO of a company.

1018
00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:22.080
 They were aggressive.

1019
00:53:23.180 --> 00:53:25.580
 And they didn't have to figure out their audience.

1020
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.220
 They were blue-collar people.

1021
00:53:28.300 --> 00:53:31.180
 They lived in communities where people worried

1022
00:53:31.180 --> 00:53:32.640
 about how do you send your kid to college,

1023
00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:34.800
 how much food is, how much the price of gas is.

1024
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:36.060
 So they were the audience.

1025
00:53:36.700 --> 00:53:39.860
 Slowly, this became a very white-collar profession.

1026
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:42.780
 Most of the people in these newsrooms

1027
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:43.980
 are college graduates.

1028
00:53:44.040 --> 00:53:47.160
 Most of them grew up around some kind of

1029
00:53:47.160 --> 00:53:49.480
 you know, upper-middle-class wealthy.

1030
00:53:50.600 --> 00:53:52.920
 Most of them went to these very good schools

1031
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:55.820
 and got a good indoctrination there.

1032
00:53:56.860 --> 00:53:59.380
 And now you've got a disconnect

1033
00:53:59.380 --> 00:54:02.860
 between the people who are telling the news

1034
00:54:02.860 --> 00:54:04.580
 and the people who are receiving it.

1035
00:54:04.580 --> 00:54:08.280
 Because now you're broadcasting to people

1036
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.720
 you don't understand, these flyover state people.

1037
00:54:13.080 --> 00:54:15.080
 And the people who are doing this,

1038
00:54:16.260 --> 00:54:17.760
 especially if you're in upper management

1039
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:18.780
 of these cable companies,

1040
00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:20.740
 you've got a nice place in the Hamptons

1041
00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:23.460
 and you're partying with elite people

1042
00:54:23.460 --> 00:54:24.620
 and hedge fund managers.

1043
00:54:24.700 --> 00:54:26.080
 And if you're lower down the rung,

1044
00:54:26.100 --> 00:54:27.040
 you're not living like that,

1045
00:54:27.040 --> 00:54:28.060
 but you might be in Brooklyn

1046
00:54:28.060 --> 00:54:31.180
 and you go to your co-op

1047
00:54:31.180 --> 00:54:33.840
 and you buy vinyl records.

1048
00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:36.400
 You pretend you have a gluten allergy

1049
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.140
 and you're living that lifestyle.

1050
00:54:40.380 --> 00:54:43.060
 And so you really, there's a remove.

1051
00:54:43.420 --> 00:54:46.080
 And so one of the biggest crimes of omissions

1052
00:54:46.080 --> 00:54:47.760
 is what do you cover in the first place?

1053
00:54:48.380 --> 00:54:49.420
 If you have a newscast,

1054
00:54:49.580 --> 00:54:52.620
 I sat in countless, countless of these meetings.

1055
00:54:53.060 --> 00:54:54.360
 You have a one-hour newscast

1056
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:55.940
 and in the morning you have a morning meeting

1057
00:54:55.940 --> 00:54:57.080
 and you're trying to figure out

1058
00:54:57.080 --> 00:54:58.320
 out of everything that's going on

1059
00:54:58.320 --> 00:54:59.360
 in the entire planet,

1060
00:55:00.020 --> 00:55:00.720
 what are you going to cover?

1061
00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:04.760
 And what interests people who live in that lifestyle

1062
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:07.420
 is very different from what interested people

1063
00:55:07.420 --> 00:55:12.540
 who were in that first wave of journalists, right?

1064
00:55:12.680 --> 00:55:15.900
 So it shows in the coverage.

1065
00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:17.920
 It shows, I don't think anyone

1066
00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:22.040
 made a conscious decision to create this bias

1067
00:55:22.040 --> 00:55:23.200
 and to create this disconnect.

1068
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:24.300
 It just happened

1069
00:55:24.300 --> 00:55:25.900
 and then it became self-perpetuating.

1070
00:55:26.200 --> 00:55:27.960
 If you look at the numbers of like

1071
00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:29.800
 what percentage of registered Republicans

1072
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:31.660
 are in newsrooms, I think it's like five.

1073
00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:34.180
 So do you believe this was unintentional then?

1074
00:55:34.680 --> 00:55:38.120
 As like it just became the case of a disconnection

1075
00:55:38.120 --> 00:55:40.340
 between the audience and the people in management

1076
00:55:40.340 --> 00:55:42.480
 and broadcasting in general over time?

1077
00:55:43.700 --> 00:55:45.500
 Yeah, I don't think anybody made the decision

1078
00:55:45.500 --> 00:55:48.180
 and I do think that the people who,

1079
00:55:48.260 --> 00:55:50.320
 these are still for-profit corporations.

1080
00:55:53.100 --> 00:55:57.220
 And so if you take a story like Ferguson, right?

1081
00:55:57.220 --> 00:55:59.720
 You had just nights, two waves, right?

1082
00:55:59.720 --> 00:56:00.840
 First, when it happened,

1083
00:56:00.860 --> 00:56:02.140
 when the Michael Brown shooting happened

1084
00:56:02.140 --> 00:56:04.160
 and then again, when the grand jury

1085
00:56:04.160 --> 00:56:07.600
 decided not to indict, right?

1086
00:56:07.600 --> 00:56:09.120
 So you had two different waves of this

1087
00:56:09.680 --> 00:56:11.480
 and you had like six or seven nights

1088
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:13.040
 of the city burning itself down.

1089
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:15.060
 And for, you know, CNN,

1090
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:16.660
 you bring out a bunch of live trucks,

1091
00:56:16.780 --> 00:56:17.880
 you bring out your reporters,

1092
00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:19.600
 you're getting huge numbers.

1093
00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.380
 You don't even, it's not like investigative reporting

1094
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:24.680
 where it takes a lot of time and effort and care.

1095
00:56:25.020 --> 00:56:27.300
 You're just reacting to the images around you

1096
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:29.120
 and you just have nights.

1097
00:56:29.120 --> 00:56:31.200
 So, you know, if you're on the management side,

1098
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:33.380
 Jeff Zucker was running the operation at that point,

1099
00:56:33.880 --> 00:56:34.540
 that's gold.

1100
00:56:35.060 --> 00:56:37.020
 I mean, it's a great news story,

1101
00:56:37.160 --> 00:56:38.280
 not to sound flip about it,

1102
00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:40.000
 but if you're a younger,

1103
00:56:40.100 --> 00:56:42.680
 this younger breed of journalists that were coming up,

1104
00:56:42.740 --> 00:56:45.620
 I think they saw it as a seminal

1105
00:56:45.620 --> 00:56:48.140
 and important moment in American history

1106
00:56:48.140 --> 00:56:50.440
 and a long overdue reckoning with race.

1107
00:56:50.580 --> 00:56:54.400
 And so they were happy to cover the story from that end.

1108
00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:55.820
 And you know what?

1109
00:56:56.020 --> 00:56:57.560
 They both had the same,

1110
00:56:57.560 --> 00:56:59.180
 they both came to the same place.

1111
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.580
 They wanted to do the story in the way that they did it,

1112
00:57:02.120 --> 00:57:05.240
 very much tilted towards the point of view of the activists

1113
00:57:06.100 --> 00:57:08.300
 and really pointed away from law enforcement,

1114
00:57:08.300 --> 00:57:10.900
 but they both had their own reasons for doing it.

1115
00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:12.140
 And it was a marriage of convenience.

1116
00:57:13.040 --> 00:57:15.540
 You think it would be also better moving forward?

1117
00:57:16.540 --> 00:57:20.880
 Because I don't think the opinion part of news these days

1118
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:21.700
 is going to go away.

1119
00:57:22.060 --> 00:57:24.400
 But for those who built their career on that,

1120
00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:29.140
 should they not in the show somewhere have a disclaimer

1121
00:57:29.140 --> 00:57:30.680
 to where they're stating,

1122
00:57:31.460 --> 00:57:33.840
 this is news commentary and news opinion

1123
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:36.500
 versus a news broadcast?

1124
00:57:37.640 --> 00:57:38.360
 I think so.

1125
00:57:38.680 --> 00:57:40.660
 One of the things that we talked about a lot

1126
00:57:41.740 --> 00:57:45.900
 and a couple of reporters were saying to me

1127
00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:48.400
 is one of the things that really blurred the line

1128
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:49.940
 between news and opinion is,

1129
00:57:50.080 --> 00:57:51.280
 especially like on CNN,

1130
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:54.620
 you'll have a story, they'll run a real news story,

1131
00:57:54.680 --> 00:57:57.220
 and then you go to this panel of six people

1132
00:57:57.220 --> 00:57:59.900
 and then they talk about it for 10 minutes.

1133
00:58:00.220 --> 00:58:02.280
 And it's very difficult for the average viewer

1134
00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:03.640
 to know where the story ended

1135
00:58:03.640 --> 00:58:04.880
 and where the opinion begins.

1136
00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:08.760
 And so yes, it would be very helpful to have a,

1137
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:09.720
 you know, you do the story

1138
00:58:09.720 --> 00:58:12.040
 and then afterwards it's like this is commentary

1139
00:58:12.040 --> 00:58:14.680
 or something, just something to differentiate it.

1140
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:17.640
 Yeah, I believe they should do that.

1141
00:58:19.300 --> 00:58:20.560
 Let me ask you this though.

1142
00:58:20.560 --> 00:58:23.800
 Your book is labeled crimes of omissions,

1143
00:58:24.020 --> 00:58:24.900
 title crimes of omissions.

1144
00:58:25.060 --> 00:58:26.600
 So that being said,

1145
00:58:27.160 --> 00:58:30.600
 what is the story behind that title?

1146
00:58:30.740 --> 00:58:32.680
 Because when I hear that I'm assuming that,

1147
00:58:33.540 --> 00:58:35.220
 assuming by the way,

1148
00:58:35.640 --> 00:58:39.380
 that there's an intent in media

1149
00:58:39.380 --> 00:58:43.120
 to omit facts and truth and data.

1150
00:58:43.840 --> 00:58:45.600
 Is that in your book,

1151
00:58:46.180 --> 00:58:48.400
 are there stories behind that

1152
00:58:48.400 --> 00:58:52.240
 that lead to actual events that took place

1153
00:58:52.240 --> 00:58:53.480
 to where you're like, well, wait a minute,

1154
00:58:53.640 --> 00:58:56.620
 you're intentionally omitting these facts?

1155
00:58:58.640 --> 00:59:00.520
 Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing

1156
00:59:00.520 --> 00:59:02.720
 that I would nuance is maybe the intentionally,

1157
00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:03.960
 but yeah, I mean, look,

1158
00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:06.580
 I do a whole chapter, two chapters,

1159
00:59:06.860 --> 00:59:09.020
 one on what happened with George Floyd and Chauvin

1160
00:59:09.020 --> 00:59:11.000
 and then the riots and the aftermath

1161
00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:11.960
 and the coverage of it.

1162
00:59:12.260 --> 00:59:16.100
 I talked to a longtime news anchor in Minneapolis

1163
00:59:16.100 --> 00:59:17.220
 who was pulled off the air

1164
00:59:17.220 --> 00:59:20.520
 because her husband was a police union leader

1165
00:59:21.110 --> 00:59:22.240
 and that was the only reason.

1166
00:59:22.420 --> 00:59:24.700
 They just said, you can't, yeah.

1167
00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:26.660
 You can't, and she had activists

1168
00:59:26.660 --> 00:59:27.860
 who were coming in front of her house

1169
00:59:27.860 --> 00:59:29.190
 with pinatas of them,

1170
00:59:31.500 --> 00:59:32.940
 killing them in effigy

1171
00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:34.720
 and demanding that they both be fired.

1172
00:59:36.720 --> 00:59:41.480
 And you just had this kind of like,

1173
00:59:41.980 --> 00:59:43.320
 you had this madness.

1174
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:44.390
 She was telling me,

1175
00:59:45.380 --> 00:59:47.360
 she's done internal memos at her station

1176
00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:48.380
 where they were saying,

1177
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:50.520
 you cannot call it a riot,

1178
00:59:50.620 --> 00:59:51.840
 call it an uprising.

1179
00:59:53.640 --> 00:59:55.820
 Let's not focus too much on the damage.

1180
00:59:55.920 --> 00:59:57.760
 Let's focus on the anger.

1181
00:59:58.860 --> 01:00:02.540
 And so, yeah, they were omitting facts

1182
01:00:02.540 --> 01:00:06.920
 because they were scared of being seen

1183
01:00:06.920 --> 01:00:08.720
 as being on the wrong side of history

1184
01:00:08.720 --> 01:00:12.480
 or they were scared of being called racist

1185
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:14.900
 or there was a lot of fear.

1186
01:00:14.900 --> 01:00:18.880
 If anyone who's worked in television

1187
01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:20.500
 or in the media knows,

1188
01:00:20.860 --> 01:00:22.960
 probably fear is the biggest overriding emotion

1189
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:26.560
 of executive decisions for the most part,

1190
01:00:26.580 --> 01:00:27.380
 more than vision.

1191
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:30.680
 And so there was a lot of fear,

1192
01:00:30.720 --> 01:00:33.060
 safer to just go along

1193
01:00:33.060 --> 01:00:34.960
 than to try to say, no, no,

1194
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:37.280
 we need to really explore the story.

1195
01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:38.180
 We need to tell the story

1196
01:00:38.180 --> 01:00:40.360
 because the truth of the matter was

1197
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:43.800
 during the day, I'm generalizing here,

1198
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:45.800
 during the day, there generally was

1199
01:00:46.460 --> 01:00:48.300
 a lot of mass protests

1200
01:00:48.300 --> 01:00:50.080
 of people who seriously were upset

1201
01:00:50.080 --> 01:00:50.940
 about what was happening

1202
01:00:50.940 --> 01:00:52.080
 and they want to change.

1203
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:55.320
 Nighttime was pretty much about looting

1204
01:00:55.320 --> 01:00:58.600
 and setting fires and getting free shit.

1205
01:01:00.160 --> 01:01:01.260
 And there's no reason

1206
01:01:01.260 --> 01:01:03.440
 that the media couldn't cover those two

1207
01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:04.720
 as two distinct events.

1208
01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:06.440
 But there was such a fear

1209
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.280
 that to somehow call what was happening at night

1210
01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:10.420
 or what it was

1211
01:01:10.420 --> 01:01:12.960
 would somehow then look,

1212
01:01:13.640 --> 01:01:14.760
 would diminish the movement,

1213
01:01:15.140 --> 01:01:16.000
 would hurt the movement.

1214
01:01:16.420 --> 01:01:17.900
 And it's not the job of the media

1215
01:01:17.900 --> 01:01:19.320
 to protect or hurt the movement.

1216
01:01:19.520 --> 01:01:20.760
 It's just the job to,

1217
01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:22.240
 this is what is happening.

1218
01:01:22.580 --> 01:01:22.860
 Yeah.

1219
01:01:22.860 --> 01:01:25.600
 And especially in that example,

1220
01:01:25.820 --> 01:01:27.700
 those were two different groups of people.

1221
01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:29.260
 They had the people who cared

1222
01:01:29.260 --> 01:01:30.280
 and you had people that were just

1223
01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:31.940
 taking advantage of the situation

1224
01:01:32.780 --> 01:01:34.660
 and getting away with crimes

1225
01:01:35.220 --> 01:01:36.540
 under the banner of protest

1226
01:01:36.540 --> 01:01:38.500
 when many of those people didn't even,

1227
01:01:38.720 --> 01:01:39.640
 they weren't involved in the protest

1228
01:01:39.640 --> 01:01:40.160
 or even cared.

1229
01:01:40.160 --> 01:01:41.680
 They were just taking advantage of the situation.

1230
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:43.440
 And this is happening

1231
01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:44.900
 in the middle of COVID, by the way,

1232
01:01:45.020 --> 01:01:45.560
 as you remember.

1233
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:46.340
 Oh, I remember.

1234
01:01:46.340 --> 01:01:47.200
 We have been told,

1235
01:01:47.200 --> 01:01:48.900
 if you went outside for a walk,

1236
01:01:49.060 --> 01:01:51.040
 you were a killer, a grandma killer.

1237
01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:54.240
 And now you had tens of thousands of people

1238
01:01:54.240 --> 01:01:55.360
 running out in the streets

1239
01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:56.360
 chanting in unison

1240
01:01:57.320 --> 01:02:00.020
 and COVID for three weeks was forgotten.

1241
01:02:00.460 --> 01:02:02.440
 Or getting arrested for going to the beach.

1242
01:02:03.760 --> 01:02:04.720
 Come on.

1243
01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:06.460
 You had complete businesses,

1244
01:02:06.980 --> 01:02:07.980
 enterprises shut down,

1245
01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:08.960
 that there was no way

1246
01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:09.960
 they were ever going to survive.

1247
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:12.280
 You know, going into this.

1248
01:02:13.100 --> 01:02:14.560
 And then you saw preferential treatment

1249
01:02:14.560 --> 01:02:16.040
 given to certain people

1250
01:02:16.660 --> 01:02:18.160
 that did have certain businesses

1251
01:02:18.160 --> 01:02:19.980
 that were able to operate somehow.

1252
01:02:20.820 --> 01:02:22.620
 And so, like the whole COVID thing,

1253
01:02:22.640 --> 01:02:23.880
 I mean, that's a whole different conversation,

1254
01:02:23.940 --> 01:02:25.960
 but it just, it literally destroyed

1255
01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:28.060
 and kind of reset America to a degree.

1256
01:02:28.940 --> 01:02:30.920
 And even though it's been five years,

1257
01:02:31.620 --> 01:02:32.460
 there's a lot of industries

1258
01:02:32.460 --> 01:02:34.380
 that never, okay, six, geez.

1259
01:02:35.140 --> 01:02:35.920
 There's still a lot of industries

1260
01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:36.700
 that never came back.

1261
01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:38.460
 Like I'm in the entertainment industry.

1262
01:02:38.560 --> 01:02:40.060
 I'm in the event production business.

1263
01:02:40.060 --> 01:02:41.800
 I provide for concerts and events

1264
01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:42.440
 and stuff like that.

1265
01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:43.340
 That's what I do.

1266
01:02:43.600 --> 01:02:45.160
 That industry never came back the same.

1267
01:02:45.640 --> 01:02:46.920
 Ever, ever.

1268
01:02:47.020 --> 01:02:47.660
 I mean, you have a hard time

1269
01:02:47.660 --> 01:02:48.280
 even finding people

1270
01:02:48.280 --> 01:02:50.660
 that want to do laborers, for example.

1271
01:02:52.380 --> 01:02:54.400
 It's just, it was just a really bad time

1272
01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:57.940
 and it wasn't being reported accurately

1273
01:02:57.940 --> 01:02:59.460
 or from the position

1274
01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:01.000
 of actually telling the truth.

1275
01:03:01.300 --> 01:03:02.320
 Because everybody was going to be,

1276
01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:03.860
 they were afraid they're going to shut down

1277
01:03:03.860 --> 01:03:05.000
 or not get their funding.

1278
01:03:05.860 --> 01:03:07.800
 It was a ridiculous time in journalism

1279
01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:10.180
 because it was just bad.

1280
01:03:10.320 --> 01:03:11.060
 I mean, we all lived through it.

1281
01:03:11.060 --> 01:03:11.680
 It was just bad.

1282
01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:12.820
 And I believe there were people

1283
01:03:12.820 --> 01:03:13.700
 who wanted to tell the truth

1284
01:03:13.700 --> 01:03:15.480
 but they were afraid of getting canceled.

1285
01:03:15.800 --> 01:03:18.040
 You know, social pressures, for example.

1286
01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:20.120
 It was just a really bad time.

1287
01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:21.960
 And let's just say,

1288
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:25.280
 it's not about, just to be clear,

1289
01:03:25.340 --> 01:03:27.380
 it's not about journalists taking a stand

1290
01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:29.500
 and saying this side's right,

1291
01:03:29.560 --> 01:03:30.160
 this side's wrong.

1292
01:03:30.460 --> 01:03:31.580
 It's asking questions.

1293
01:03:32.100 --> 01:03:36.740
 Governor Newsom, why is Target and Walmart open

1294
01:03:36.740 --> 01:03:38.840
 but all these mall and pawn shops closed?

1295
01:03:39.120 --> 01:03:41.340
 What is the difference about COVID transmission

1296
01:03:42.020 --> 01:03:44.440
 when it's a multi-billion dollar corporation?

1297
01:03:45.340 --> 01:03:46.040
 Tough questions.

1298
01:03:46.180 --> 01:03:47.400
 Maybe he's got a great answer

1299
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:48.460
 that we never heard.

1300
01:03:49.060 --> 01:03:51.340
 But make him defend his position.

1301
01:03:51.660 --> 01:03:52.240
 That's the job.

1302
01:03:53.040 --> 01:03:55.080
 Why are schools closed in Los Angeles

1303
01:03:55.080 --> 01:03:57.620
 for two years when Europe had been open forever

1304
01:03:57.620 --> 01:03:59.540
 and the teachers union in LA said,

1305
01:03:59.740 --> 01:04:00.100
 we'll reopen.

1306
01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:02.880
 But one of the conditions is funding for BLM.

1307
01:04:03.040 --> 01:04:04.500
 What does that have to do with COVID?

1308
01:04:05.180 --> 01:04:07.940
 So, nobody was asking tough questions.

1309
01:04:08.460 --> 01:04:10.760
 The reporters are supposed to hold truth to power

1310
01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:11.960
 and they weren't doing it.

1311
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:13.380
 They hold truth to power

1312
01:04:14.140 --> 01:04:18.780
 when the power is from a side that they're not supporting.

1313
01:04:19.460 --> 01:04:21.300
 And then they totally roll over

1314
01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:22.560
 when it's the other way around.

1315
01:04:23.720 --> 01:04:26.400
 And, you know, I get into it just to drop.

1316
01:04:27.460 --> 01:04:30.960
 I don't know exactly which way your audience goes on this.

1317
01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:33.960
 I don't necessarily have a huge problem

1318
01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:36.440
 with the tough reporting on Trump.

1319
01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:42.100
 I think there's a hard time for journalists

1320
01:04:42.100 --> 01:04:44.140
 to also talk about the successes.

1321
01:04:44.620 --> 01:04:46.400
 They seem to gloss those over.

1322
01:04:46.820 --> 01:04:47.720
 But I think, you know,

1323
01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:49.840
 like a lot of times he asks for it.

1324
01:04:49.940 --> 01:04:52.240
 You know, when you write a tweet

1325
01:04:52.240 --> 01:04:53.580
 like you did after Rob Reiner,

1326
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:56.200
 you're going to get a lot of crap

1327
01:04:56.200 --> 01:04:56.980
 and you deserve it.

1328
01:04:57.820 --> 01:05:01.580
 But the problem was then the kid gloves treatment

1329
01:05:02.220 --> 01:05:03.680
 when it's another president.

1330
01:05:03.680 --> 01:05:06.180
 With Joe Biden, just, you know,

1331
01:05:06.200 --> 01:05:09.780
 it's a conspiracy that the laptop story could be real.

1332
01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:10.740
 It's a Russian hoax

1333
01:05:10.740 --> 01:05:14.000
 or he's never been sharper and more engaged.

1334
01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:16.200
 And, you know, this is now you're getting like

1335
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.240
 into, you know, state-run propaganda.

1336
01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:20.440
 It's starting to feel like propaganda.

1337
01:05:20.720 --> 01:05:21.800
 Yeah. Yeah.

1338
01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:22.700
 Well, that goes back

1339
01:05:22.700 --> 01:05:24.660
 to what you were just talking about earlier

1340
01:05:24.660 --> 01:05:26.300
 when we first started the conversation,

1341
01:05:26.520 --> 01:05:28.100
 bias in media, you know,

1342
01:05:28.300 --> 01:05:30.920
 when it became opinions versus truth.

1343
01:05:31.780 --> 01:05:34.100
 I personally, look, my audience,

1344
01:05:34.100 --> 01:05:35.260
 I don't even know which way they all lean.

1345
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:36.440
 I'm kind of in the center.

1346
01:05:36.520 --> 01:05:37.320
 I'm right of center.

1347
01:05:38.100 --> 01:05:40.300
 And even though Trump's my president,

1348
01:05:40.580 --> 01:05:41.640
 I mean, I don't have a problem

1349
01:05:41.640 --> 01:05:43.000
 with calling him out myself.

1350
01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:44.980
 You know, facts are facts.

1351
01:05:45.120 --> 01:05:46.640
 If something is wrong, you can call it out.

1352
01:05:47.100 --> 01:05:48.400
 I have no problem with that.

1353
01:05:48.720 --> 01:05:50.020
 And I think journalists should be able

1354
01:05:50.020 --> 01:05:50.920
 to ask tough questions.

1355
01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:52.400
 But as you stated before,

1356
01:05:52.520 --> 01:05:54.060
 it's like, it's not consistent.

1357
01:05:54.080 --> 01:05:54.820
 That's the problem.

1358
01:05:55.180 --> 01:05:57.320
 If you're going to be tough on somebody,

1359
01:05:57.400 --> 01:05:59.120
 be tough on the other guy too, for example.

1360
01:05:59.120 --> 01:06:00.500
 You got to be very consistent in it.

1361
01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:04.120
 I think that'll be one of the key things

1362
01:06:04.120 --> 01:06:05.840
 that will start to bring people back

1363
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:07.860
 to trusting journalists again.

1364
01:06:08.480 --> 01:06:09.100
 You know, definitely.

1365
01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:10.620
 Yeah, I have no problem with tough questions.

1366
01:06:10.700 --> 01:06:11.640
 I mean, they should be asked.

1367
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:13.000
 That's a journalist job.

1368
01:06:13.520 --> 01:06:14.700
 You're able to do

1369
01:06:14.700 --> 01:06:16.420
 what most people like me can't do.

1370
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:17.820
 I don't have access to that person.

1371
01:06:17.900 --> 01:06:19.100
 You do ask the question.

1372
01:06:20.660 --> 01:06:22.280
 Right. And yeah.

1373
01:06:22.500 --> 01:06:26.400
 And so, again, that's a loss of trust

1374
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:28.700
 when people aren't dumb.

1375
01:06:28.700 --> 01:06:32.140
 So when they see that the coverage

1376
01:06:33.220 --> 01:06:35.120
 is so vociferous.

1377
01:06:36.620 --> 01:06:37.840
 And by the way, the funny thing is,

1378
01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:39.600
 you know, in 2016 through the primaries,

1379
01:06:39.620 --> 01:06:40.680
 he kind of got a free ride.

1380
01:06:40.900 --> 01:06:42.540
 The press was just kind of abused by him.

1381
01:06:42.540 --> 01:06:43.460
 He was a good story.

1382
01:06:44.100 --> 01:06:45.260
 As soon as he got the nomination,

1383
01:06:45.260 --> 01:06:46.860
 it turned and it never went back.

1384
01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:51.340
 And again, I think it's okay,

1385
01:06:52.900 --> 01:06:54.160
 especially when you have someone

1386
01:06:54.160 --> 01:06:55.280
 who's this unusual

1387
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:57.020
 and makes so many outrageous statements.

1388
01:06:57.020 --> 01:07:00.380
 There's going to be a lot of tough questions

1389
01:07:00.380 --> 01:07:01.220
 and tough coverage.

1390
01:07:02.500 --> 01:07:04.480
 But when the media gets to the point

1391
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:05.860
 where they feel like, oh,

1392
01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:10.320
 if there are good reports about GDP growth

1393
01:07:10.320 --> 01:07:11.560
 or about unemployment,

1394
01:07:12.300 --> 01:07:14.140
 we're not going to really highlight those.

1395
01:07:14.180 --> 01:07:15.440
 Now you're getting into activism

1396
01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:16.480
 and you're getting into bias.

1397
01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:18.640
 And when somebody else is in power

1398
01:07:18.640 --> 01:07:21.100
 and they're facing a scandal

1399
01:07:21.100 --> 01:07:23.220
 or there are serious questions

1400
01:07:23.220 --> 01:07:24.860
 about their capacity to govern

1401
01:07:24.860 --> 01:07:26.940
 and you're soft peddling that,

1402
01:07:27.160 --> 01:07:28.120
 that's activism.

1403
01:07:28.120 --> 01:07:29.160
 That's not truth telling.

1404
01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:32.040
 And it's not, it's just not the job

1405
01:07:32.040 --> 01:07:33.960
 of journalists to want an outcome.

1406
01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:36.320
 And yet they are not behaving

1407
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:37.400
 like that's the case.

1408
01:07:37.660 --> 01:07:38.140
 Crimes of omission.

1409
01:07:39.520 --> 01:07:40.040
 Exactly.

1410
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:42.620
 Available at bookstores near you.

1411
01:07:43.460 --> 01:07:44.480
 So pre-sale now, correct?

1412
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:46.080
 Yeah, pre-sale now.

1413
01:07:46.200 --> 01:07:47.560
 It's Crimes of Omission, Rob Rosen.

1414
01:07:47.640 --> 01:07:48.800
 Now I did find out,

1415
01:07:49.240 --> 01:07:50.040
 make sure to look it up

1416
01:07:50.040 --> 01:07:51.240
 under Crimes of Omission

1417
01:07:51.240 --> 01:07:52.420
 because I did find out

1418
01:07:52.420 --> 01:07:53.560
 and I didn't know this till after

1419
01:07:53.560 --> 01:07:54.100
 I published it.

1420
01:07:54.100 --> 01:07:55.560
 There is an erotic publisher

1421
01:07:55.560 --> 01:07:56.600
 with my same name.

1422
01:07:56.600 --> 01:07:58.220
 It's not me, I promise you.

1423
01:07:58.660 --> 01:08:00.760
 But if you want this book,

1424
01:08:00.840 --> 01:08:02.040
 I mean, maybe you want to check out

1425
01:08:02.040 --> 01:08:02.840
 that guy's book too.

1426
01:08:02.860 --> 01:08:04.140
 But if you want this book,

1427
01:08:04.340 --> 01:08:05.540
 this is the only book I've written

1428
01:08:05.540 --> 01:08:07.880
 and I'm taking pre-orders now.

1429
01:08:08.340 --> 01:08:09.860
 And I think that it's told

1430
01:08:09.860 --> 01:08:11.620
 in an engaging way.

1431
01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:13.660
 Like I really try to take people

1432
01:08:13.660 --> 01:08:14.440
 through, you know,

1433
01:08:15.480 --> 01:08:16.960
 Philando Castile, all these cases

1434
01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:18.000
 and take people like

1435
01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:19.580
 what happened that morning

1436
01:08:20.660 --> 01:08:22.260
 with the four officers

1437
01:08:22.260 --> 01:08:23.240
 and George Floyd.

1438
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:25.279
 I try to take you through their day.

1439
01:08:25.500 --> 01:08:26.100
 Like what happened?

1440
01:08:26.220 --> 01:08:27.160
 What happened in the weeks?

1441
01:08:27.220 --> 01:08:28.080
 How did we get here?

1442
01:08:28.420 --> 01:08:30.300
 And sort of in a true crime story form,

1443
01:08:30.300 --> 01:08:31.399
 just the whole story.

1444
01:08:31.979 --> 01:08:32.979
 And then see at the end of it,

1445
01:08:32.979 --> 01:08:34.399
 maybe it doesn't change

1446
01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:36.020
 whatever your opinion was before.

1447
01:08:36.140 --> 01:08:37.340
 But I have a feeling,

1448
01:08:37.840 --> 01:08:38.819
 I think more than anything,

1449
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:40.200
 the truth moderates.

1450
01:08:40.840 --> 01:08:42.340
 And the more you know,

1451
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:44.859
 whatever side of this you are on,

1452
01:08:45.220 --> 01:08:46.660
 you get a little more into the gray

1453
01:08:46.660 --> 01:08:48.100
 because it's never that black or white.

1454
01:08:48.160 --> 01:08:49.080
 Yeah, I mean, honestly,

1455
01:08:49.080 --> 01:08:49.740
 we live in the gray.

1456
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:50.540
 We really do.

1457
01:08:50.580 --> 01:08:52.080
 I believe most people's lives

1458
01:08:52.080 --> 01:08:52.859
 are in the gray.

1459
01:08:53.380 --> 01:08:54.720
 It's never really black or white.

1460
01:08:55.120 --> 01:08:57.899
 Okay, so the book is June 2nd release.

1461
01:08:58.080 --> 01:08:58.580
 Is that correct?

1462
01:08:58.660 --> 01:08:59.060
 Yes.

1463
01:08:59.180 --> 01:08:59.420
 All right.

1464
01:08:59.439 --> 01:08:59.640
 Yep.

1465
01:09:00.100 --> 01:09:01.220
 Let me ask you this.

1466
01:09:01.760 --> 01:09:02.819
 Before we sign off here,

1467
01:09:03.260 --> 01:09:04.220
 are there any other secrets

1468
01:09:04.220 --> 01:09:05.200
 that you want to tell people

1469
01:09:05.200 --> 01:09:05.859
 that are in the book?

1470
01:09:06.220 --> 01:09:07.160
 Or do we have to wait?

1471
01:09:07.939 --> 01:09:08.620
 You got to wait.

1472
01:09:08.819 --> 01:09:09.620
 But there is, look,

1473
01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:14.479
 there are some pretty juicy stories

1474
01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:16.120
 that I got from the inside

1475
01:09:16.120 --> 01:09:17.300
 about what was going on

1476
01:09:17.300 --> 01:09:18.300
 inside these newsrooms

1477
01:09:18.300 --> 01:09:19.960
 when they were making these decisions.

1478
01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:21.899
 And, you know,

1479
01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:23.020
 in the pressure of the moment.

1480
01:09:23.200 --> 01:09:24.479
 And so I think it'll be

1481
01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:25.340
 it's an interesting read

1482
01:09:25.340 --> 01:09:27.600
 because it takes you back and forth

1483
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:28.680
 from the newsrooms

1484
01:09:29.240 --> 01:09:30.840
 where all this is going down

1485
01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:32.240
 but also out into the streets.

1486
01:09:32.240 --> 01:09:33.700
 I talked to a lot of cops for this

1487
01:09:33.700 --> 01:09:35.040
 and a lot of homicide detectives

1488
01:09:35.040 --> 01:09:36.479
 and got their perspective on that.

1489
01:09:36.760 --> 01:09:38.880
 And it kind of flips back and forth.

1490
01:09:38.880 --> 01:09:40.500
 And I think it's an interesting perspective.

1491
01:09:42.200 --> 01:09:42.560
 Awesome.

1492
01:09:43.140 --> 01:09:44.700
 I'm going to wrap it up, Rob.

1493
01:09:45.740 --> 01:09:46.580
 Can I tell you the truth?

1494
01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:47.700
 I like this conversation.

1495
01:09:47.700 --> 01:09:48.300
 It was engaging.

1496
01:09:48.460 --> 01:09:49.779
 I love that you held your ground.

1497
01:09:50.160 --> 01:09:51.720
 Pushed back on me when I pushed on you, though.

1498
01:09:52.140 --> 01:09:52.960
 I love that stuff.

1499
01:09:53.500 --> 01:09:54.300
 I appreciate it.

1500
01:09:54.300 --> 01:09:55.200
 It was very informative.

1501
01:09:55.440 --> 01:09:57.220
 And I look forward to reading the book myself.

1502
01:09:58.400 --> 01:09:59.700
 So anything else you want to say?

1503
01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:01.720
 No, thank you.

1504
01:10:01.860 --> 01:10:02.440
 I enjoyed it.

1505
01:10:02.460 --> 01:10:03.200
 I'm going to go back

1506
01:10:03.200 --> 01:10:04.760
 and listen to some of your podcasts now.

1507
01:10:05.440 --> 01:10:06.380
 I appreciate it.

1508
01:10:06.480 --> 01:10:08.200
 Well, don't go in with too high of an expectation.

1509
01:10:09.220 --> 01:10:11.120
 I don't believe that.

1510
01:10:11.340 --> 01:10:11.820
 Hey, no, seriously.

1511
01:10:11.820 --> 01:10:12.780
 Thank you very much for your time.

1512
01:10:12.780 --> 01:10:13.460
 I appreciate it.

1513
01:10:14.140 --> 01:10:14.420
 All right.

1514
01:10:14.420 --> 01:10:15.040
 Thank you.

1515
01:10:15.060 --> 01:10:15.660
 Thanks, Roger.