Eric Robinson - Experience in The FBI, Terrorism, Islam, and Epstein Files

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 I think we're just gonna go for it, Eric.

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 Welcome to World of Blaze, sir.

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 And happy to have you here, Eric.

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 I'm very interested in talking to you.

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 So my wife actually wants to really hear this one.

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 She was very interested in your background,

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 12 years in the Christian ministry.

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 And then one day you decided to become an FBI agent.

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 And what's awesome is you wrote a book about it

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 and all your tales are in there,

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 but we're gonna try to get some of that out

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 in this recording here in this session.

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 But yeah, we do have questions, I have questions,

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 and I am very interested in your tale, your story.

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 And firstly is, how do you go from being minister

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 or from being in the Christian ministry

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 to deciding to be an FBI agent?

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 Yeah, I was pastoring.

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 I was a senior pastor of Baptist Church

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 that I had started.

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 We had a pretty good size congregation,

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 maybe 200 regular attenders.

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 And we were looking to reach out to folks

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 who didn't normally go to church.

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 So with that, trying to bring in people

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 who weren't raised in a church,

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 we were trying to draw people who had issues in life,

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 maybe didn't feel like they were welcomed

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 in your regular church.

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 So part of reaching out to folks with problems like that

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 is they brought their problems with them.

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 And I found myself as I'm ministering,

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 working with people and they were bringing

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 their life issues that I wasn't able to let go

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 of these things.

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 So when someone says, hey, I think my wife's cheating

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 on me, another's like, my kid might be an addict.

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 It stuck with me and better men have been able to do

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 a better job of handling that than I was.

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 And the result of that was every single day,

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 and I'm not exaggerating, for two years,

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 I had stress-related headaches.

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 Cause I just, I told my wife one day,

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 I've got to do something different

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 and I need to find a job with less stress.

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 And so I joined the FBI and I applied for two jobs,

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 one I was overqualified for

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 and one I was underqualified for.

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 And I got this one.

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 And what I was surprised about over the years

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 was how much of a more comforting fit

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 law enforcement was for me.

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 Working in ministry, I love that.

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 I worked with some great people who sacrificed a lot.

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 And I've often said, I've also met some of the people

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 that I hate the most and I spend eternity with too.

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 And that's just how it is.

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 But the difficulties I had necessitated

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 finding something else.

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 So in April of 2002, I preached on Easter Sunday

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 in my church and the next Sunday I was in Quantico, Virginia.

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 And then the Sunday after that,

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 I preached in the chapel in Quantico, Virginia

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 because they didn't have a chaplain.

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 How old were you when you decided to make that switch?

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 I was 30, 33, which was about average age.

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 The incoming agents now skew a little bit younger,

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 but around 30 is when most folks come in,

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 maybe late 20s.

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 I had a fairly old class.

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 I had one fellow who was 44 and the cutoff is 37,

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 but he had been in for nine years, out for eight,

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 9-11 happened.

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 He was an Arkansas state representative who spoke Chinese

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 and he wanted to serve the country again

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 and got a special dispensation from the attorney general

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 to put off his retirement.

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 Interesting.

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 So you feel that what you did was a natural fit

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 and kind of, did you feel it was close

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 to being a pastor in any way?

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 I did, it was-

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 How so?

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 I felt like the work in law enforcement,

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 obviously there can be corruption and harm that's done,

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 but otherwise if you're carrying out law enforcement

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 the proper way, I feel like you're doing God's work.

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 And I felt like I was.

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 If you have your home robbed or your child killed

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 or something bad happened to you,

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 the church can offer prayers and maybe raise funds,

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 but you're not receiving justice.

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 So this was something worldly that could be brought about

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 that helped people, that they're gonna get justice.

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 I find it interesting, cause you go from that,

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 I'm just reading over here from some of your bio,

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 you did work a range of crimes, white collar,

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 counter-terrorism, interesting,

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 like to see what you have to say about some of that.

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 Crimes against children, which is never good,

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 gangs, drugs, and public corruption.

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 But I also see you served as a SWAT operator

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 and a firearms instructor as well as a tactics instructor.

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 So it seems like, was it a major switch

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 for you to make that move or were you already

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 like a gun owner, were you someone

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 who was already inclined to lean that way

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 or you just took it head on once you went into the FBI?

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 Like I said, I kind of slid into it.

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 So I had fired a gun once before I came to the FBI

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 and that definitely showed.

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 So I was skipping rounds off the concrete

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 when we first learned,

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 but the instructors there are very good.

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 So as I progressed through the four months,

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 I was shooting fairly well.

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 And it wasn't until later in my career

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 that I started putting a thought process

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 to shooting and then our primary firearms instructor said,

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 hey, Eric, you should try out to be an instructor.

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 I thought, yeah, I'm okay.

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 But I spent a few months regularly shooting

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 and just that time of being by myself,

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 not under the clock, taking shots

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 and thinking through that grip,

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 that squeeze brought about this result.

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 That's when I started to advance

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 and then being on the SWAT team,

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 we would shoot so often

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 that that just naturally is going to improve folks.

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 And now you're just,

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 now you're taking fine edges off

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 to getting a little bit better, a little bit better.

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 What made you want to join SWAT?

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 Who doesn't want to join SWAT?

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 That was the cool guys, right?

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 Right.

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 Once you get into the FBI,

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 the best part of it is bringing about an arrest

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 or a search warrant.

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 Now, well, with SWAT, you get to go out

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 and at least do some of that physical end of it.

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 The people I served with in the FBI

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 are some of the best people I've met,

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 dedicated folks, all competent.

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 We hire a high class of people.

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 You have to be because you have to graduate college

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 and have special abilities and have a clean record.

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 And then the best of those people

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 were the ones I served with on SWAT

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 because these are guys,

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 at least where I was serving in the Cleveland division,

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 these are guys who are implicitly willing to die for you.

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 And you know that, we don't talk about it,

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 nobody hugs and cries,

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 but you know these are dedicated men.

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 So the time next to them, great group of people.

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 And when we would do trials for SWAT,

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 guys would come and we'd ask,

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 why do you want to join SWAT?

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 And a lot would say, I want the camaraderie,

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 I want the brotherhood.

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 And that's the right answer.

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 But as they'd leave the room,

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 we'd shake their heads and they're like,

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 they don't even know.

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 Because it's a special closeness

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 when you're sitting with guys at one in the morning,

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 getting ready to hit a house

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 and no bad things might happen.

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 Yeah, interesting.

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 So a lot of people would think that

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 most people who joined SWAT are just action junkies.

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 But there's always a bit,

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 from what I've heard from people,

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 I've never, I mean, I haven't served in,

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 I'm not a SWAT guy, but I've always heard that.

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 It's a different connection, it's a different level.

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 It's more than just guns and blaze.

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 It's a lot of planning, right?

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 There's a lot of prep, there's a lot of training.

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 It's not just, hey, grab your gun and go

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 and let's see what we can do.

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 Well, what I enjoyed too is,

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 there are tactics that we train on

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 and then I would provide training to agents.

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 But learning those tactics and the footwork

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 and the proper movements,

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 it's like filling out a crossword puzzle.

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 You hit this room you haven't seen before

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 and it's super complicated.

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 I move this way, this guy covers my back

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 and you kind of smile when you're done,

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 like, dude, we just did that, that was pretty cool.

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 And getting that ability

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 and knowing you're at a higher level,

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 in a lot of ways that engendered respect

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 from the other agents too,

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 because they didn't get as much training as we did.

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 And it feels good to know

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 that you're at the top of your game.

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 You're trying to be the best you can

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 and most qualified you can be.

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 Let's talk about your experiences in counter-terrorism.

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 I would like to take care of what you encountered

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 or whatever you can talk about.

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 And I know you have a lot of tales in your book,

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 I'm sure.

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 And I do want to kind of tie some of your experiences

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 into what's happening now in the USA.

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 I mean, I just have to, it's kind of the show I am.

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 But we don't have to go too far down a road

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 you don't want to.

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 So if you're not interested,

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 you can just say, hey, whatever.

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 I'm not gonna try to make it too political.

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 But I do have an interest in your thoughts after serving,

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 after working in counter-terrorism,

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 the things you've seen, as I read,

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 crimes against children, et cetera.

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 So after working in counter-terrorism,

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 seems relevant to today.

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 What are your thoughts right now

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 as far as the state of America at this moment,

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 given your experience and what you dealt with,

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 and probably more to the point,

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 we're talking about how we want to secure borders

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 and et cetera.

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 And it doesn't matter

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 how you necessarily feel about that politically,

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 but your view after the experience you had,

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 what are your thoughts?

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 Well, broadly speaking,

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 when I worked criminal investigations for 15 years,

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 and one day my boss said,

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 hey, you're gonna be transferred over

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 to do counter-terrorism.

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 And I thought, I don't know anything.

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 Which is strange because I think the reason I got hired

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 in the FBI is because I had studied Islam.

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 And so this was after 9-11,

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 they probably said, oh yeah, this will be great.

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 And then they put me in criminal and I enjoyed that.

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 So I entered into doing national security counter-terrorism

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 and we had been going through a series

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 of investigations where there hadn't been attacks,

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 cases were largely terrorist funding cases

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 where you try to see folks sending money

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 to Hezbollah or something like that.

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 And it was difficult.

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 And the cases would languish for four years

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 and go nowhere.

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 And I had a couple of those

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 and you just couldn't prove anything.

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 And like maybe these guys are dirt bags,

256
00:11:12.220 --> 00:11:13.880
 maybe they're just sending money home.

257
00:11:14.660 --> 00:11:16.520
 And then while working that,

258
00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:18.020
 and again, this is just the broad stuff,

259
00:11:18.500 --> 00:11:20.780
 you can focus more if you want.

260
00:11:21.500 --> 00:11:26.740
 And then as we were looking to international terrorism,

261
00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:29.460
 then there became a rise of domestic terrorism

262
00:11:29.460 --> 00:11:32.700
 and we started doing investigations into that.

263
00:11:33.780 --> 00:11:36.920
 And now we've been doing the investigations

264
00:11:36.920 --> 00:11:39.100
 into domestic terrorism for a long time.

265
00:11:39.100 --> 00:11:40.940
 And there's a constant reminder

266
00:11:40.940 --> 00:11:42.920
 that I would bring up to my supervisors.

267
00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:46.340
 We need to be ready for that curve

268
00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:49.220
 where we're focused one way

269
00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:52.780
 and now we're hit again with international terrorists.

270
00:11:54.400 --> 00:11:57.420
 So those investigations are all predicated

271
00:11:57.420 --> 00:12:01.720
 on having good informants who can have the eyes.

272
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.080
 I refer to the guys that I worked with

273
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:05.240
 as force multipliers.

274
00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:07.320
 They're the ones who are scouring the internet

275
00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:08.680
 or making connections,

276
00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.080
 talking to people and hearing things,

277
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.440
 and then passing on possible violent behavior from others.

278
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.400
 So it's one thing to have rhetoric

279
00:12:18.400 --> 00:12:23.100
 or someone who has certain ideals,

280
00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:25.440
 but that has to also be connected

281
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.440
 to some type of violent intent,

282
00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:30.560
 whether that's destruction of property

283
00:12:30.560 --> 00:12:33.820
 or it's harming people for a cause.

284
00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:35.900
 Hard to prove though, right?

285
00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:37.920
 It is.

286
00:12:38.300 --> 00:12:41.640
 We spent so much time with guys who would say,

287
00:12:41.780 --> 00:12:43.460
 hey, we got to kill these people

288
00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:45.220
 and they're saying that online

289
00:12:45.220 --> 00:12:47.620
 and we send guys in to see how serious they are

290
00:12:47.620 --> 00:12:48.960
 and they meet face to face.

291
00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:52.740
 And I've had guys sitting in a group of 12 dudes

292
00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:55.260
 and one guy says, hey, I work construction.

293
00:12:55.340 --> 00:12:57.180
 I can get ahold of bomb making material.

294
00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:59.300
 And then suddenly folks go,

295
00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.440
 oh, yeah, let's just keep it to talk.

296
00:13:03.300 --> 00:13:04.700
 So guys will talk big.

297
00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.040
 And then you never know when one day somebody snaps.

298
00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:10.340
 We had a guy in Cleveland who,

299
00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:11.700
 I mean, it wasn't egregious,

300
00:13:11.700 --> 00:13:13.020
 but he got 20 years in prison

301
00:13:13.020 --> 00:13:16.600
 who fire bombed a church trying to destroy it

302
00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.700
 because he was part of a domestic terrorist group,

303
00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:23.040
 but he worked totally on his own.

304
00:13:23.260 --> 00:13:26.840
 Just got drunk, felt like he needed to protect people.

305
00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:30.940
 And so filled one of his bottles with fuel

306
00:13:31.780 --> 00:13:33.540
 and scorched the side of a church.

307
00:13:33.820 --> 00:13:34.360
 That was all.

308
00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.360
 Is there a real threat though to the US?

309
00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.200
 Because that's the question a lot of people,

310
00:13:41.540 --> 00:13:42.160
 I mean, let's just be honest,

311
00:13:42.220 --> 00:13:44.240
 a lot of keyboard warriors and online type people

312
00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:46.000
 that they glean the internet

313
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.060
 and they don't dive deeper than the narrative

314
00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:49.700
 or the headline.

315
00:13:50.280 --> 00:13:53.640
 So from your work, can you verify that, yeah,

316
00:13:53.660 --> 00:13:56.700
 there are bad people who wanna do harm

317
00:13:56.700 --> 00:13:59.440
 to the United States or to Americans in general?

318
00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:01.420
 Absolutely.

319
00:14:01.760 --> 00:14:02.540
 That's a true statement.

320
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:04.560
 Oh, absolutely.

321
00:14:04.900 --> 00:14:06.840
 And we don't know who they are.

322
00:14:07.260 --> 00:14:09.820
 They are likely going to be

323
00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:12.880
 just homegrown violent extremists.

324
00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:15.600
 So it's gonna be a singular person.

325
00:14:16.520 --> 00:14:18.400
 They often don't work together.

326
00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:20.620
 The coordination efforts you see,

327
00:14:20.880 --> 00:14:25.080
 that happened on 9-11 and now we're digging in.

328
00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:28.200
 The efforts that somebody is gonna have,

329
00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:30.860
 like all the attacks that you've seen,

330
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.800
 whether from Americans born, raised in America

331
00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:38.140
 or folks who come overseas with a jihadist point of view,

332
00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:40.620
 those are all individuals.

333
00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:43.420
 The Pulse nightclub shooting,

334
00:14:44.280 --> 00:14:47.340
 it's just one person who it's referred to

335
00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:48.520
 as stochastic terrorism.

336
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:50.360
 They hear the rhetoric that says,

337
00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:52.740
 somebody needs to do something about this.

338
00:14:53.060 --> 00:14:53.940
 Here's the tools.

339
00:14:54.380 --> 00:14:55.540
 Somebody take this up.

340
00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:57.680
 And then one person says, that's me.

341
00:14:58.060 --> 00:15:00.820
 So we had a case a few years ago

342
00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:04.420
 where we had an individual who he started out

343
00:15:04.420 --> 00:15:06.880
 as a Satanist that didn't work for him.

344
00:15:07.020 --> 00:15:08.320
 Then he became a Nazi.

345
00:15:08.620 --> 00:15:11.200
 And then he finally pledged to ISIS

346
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.520
 because he felt like they were better at killing the Jews.

347
00:15:14.260 --> 00:15:15.880
 We got an informant in on him.

348
00:15:16.500 --> 00:15:20.620
 And that went as far as them scouting a local synagogue.

349
00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:22.560
 And he talked openly

350
00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:25.200
 about how he would carry out this mass shooting.

351
00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:29.840
 He then purchased a gun, fortunately from our undercover.

352
00:15:30.520 --> 00:15:32.340
 And that's when we took him down.

353
00:15:32.900 --> 00:15:35.140
 But he was ready to go.

354
00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:37.940
 He was set to, you know, you said,

355
00:15:37.940 --> 00:15:42.020
 I got to make sure I get, you know, the priest first

356
00:15:42.390 --> 00:15:44.420
 and then I'll mow people down as much as I can.

357
00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:47.400
 So it's just that one individual out there

358
00:15:47.400 --> 00:15:48.960
 who's going to do it in the name

359
00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:50.240
 of whatever belief he has.

360
00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:51.000
 That's crazy.

361
00:15:51.400 --> 00:15:54.340
 His motivation was because he wanted to kill Jews

362
00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:57.440
 or that was just part of his belief

363
00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.360
 or whatever was motivating him.

364
00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.280
 Or he just uses an excuse maybe, I don't know.

365
00:16:02.620 --> 00:16:04.140
 It could be this guy.

366
00:16:04.140 --> 00:16:08.120
 I mean, there was a post arrest interrogation

367
00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:10.800
 and the case agent just finally stopped it

368
00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:14.200
 after preaching for hours about how he hated the Jews.

369
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.340
 And anybody who has that,

370
00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:18.440
 unless you're coming from

371
00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:20.140
 some type of religious point of view,

372
00:16:20.920 --> 00:16:22.080
 anybody who has that,

373
00:16:22.780 --> 00:16:25.080
 has some type of mental health problem,

374
00:16:25.460 --> 00:16:26.860
 he definitely knew right from wrong.

375
00:16:26.900 --> 00:16:28.300
 That wasn't the issue.

376
00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:32.360
 But they'd never done anything to him.

377
00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:36.100
 He's probably just using it as a way to justify his actions

378
00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:38.340
 and, you know, the fact that he made a decision

379
00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:39.460
 to follow through, right?

380
00:16:40.460 --> 00:16:42.480
 Some people, they'll claim certain things

381
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:44.160
 that are outlandish, but they're not really,

382
00:16:44.420 --> 00:16:45.760
 it's not really who they are.

383
00:16:46.900 --> 00:16:49.940
 Well, and so many of these, like the mass shooters,

384
00:16:51.380 --> 00:16:54.040
 it's either some type of depression,

385
00:16:54.100 --> 00:16:55.180
 mental health issue,

386
00:16:57.140 --> 00:16:59.480
 or they need to change their life.

387
00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:02.660
 Like they're so depressed and upset with life

388
00:17:03.280 --> 00:17:05.440
 that they need to just stop the clock

389
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:07.880
 and change things completely.

390
00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:10.060
 Well, you know what the greatest way to do that

391
00:17:10.060 --> 00:17:11.720
 is to be a mass murderer

392
00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:13.680
 because that will completely change my life.

393
00:17:13.780 --> 00:17:15.359
 And that's not necessarily the logic,

394
00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:17.400
 but that's how things go.

395
00:17:18.140 --> 00:17:20.200
 Yeah, I understand what you're getting at.

396
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:21.839
 You know, they think I can get rid

397
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:23.540
 of all the things around me that's creating

398
00:17:23.540 --> 00:17:25.500
 all this angst and I'll be able to move forward,

399
00:17:25.560 --> 00:17:27.420
 you know, fresh start, right?

400
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.060
 Life won't be the same.

401
00:17:29.060 --> 00:17:30.480
 Yeah, slash and burn really.

402
00:17:30.700 --> 00:17:33.020
 It's kind of how they're seeing it, you know?

403
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.940
 Yeah, it's not logical.

404
00:17:35.080 --> 00:17:36.800
 It's just, I have to do something.

405
00:17:37.040 --> 00:17:37.560
 It's emotional.

406
00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:39.520
 It's emotional. Yeah.

407
00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.300
 That's all it is.

408
00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:42.700
 So I'm gonna back you up.

409
00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:44.640
 Obviously this is probably because you were pastoring

410
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.740
 or interested, but what brought you to study Islam?

411
00:17:49.810 --> 00:17:52.450
 Well, my wife and I initially were going to go

412
00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:54.890
 to Muslim countries to be missionaries

413
00:17:54.890 --> 00:17:55.970
 and that was our intent.

414
00:17:56.810 --> 00:17:59.110
 We had a few family issues come through

415
00:17:59.110 --> 00:18:01.030
 and so rather than going overseas,

416
00:18:01.870 --> 00:18:06.070
 I took a position in a local church, usual route.

417
00:18:06.110 --> 00:18:07.550
 I was a youth pastor for a while

418
00:18:07.550 --> 00:18:10.610
 and then an associate pastor until the church

419
00:18:10.610 --> 00:18:12.510
 where I was an associate pastor said,

420
00:18:12.590 --> 00:18:15.210
 hey, we'd like to plant a new church in the area.

421
00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:17.490
 And I said, I'd love to do that.

422
00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:18.810
 I went through the process

423
00:18:18.810 --> 00:18:23.030
 and we started a church miles down the road

424
00:18:23.810 --> 00:18:26.570
 and had a lot of fulfillment doing that too.

425
00:18:28.070 --> 00:18:31.370
 Can you expand on that experience a little bit more?

426
00:18:32.310 --> 00:18:35.250
 You know, like where you were and what you did.

427
00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:37.710
 Yeah, we were in Western New York

428
00:18:37.710 --> 00:18:39.670
 in Lakewood, New York, beautiful area.

429
00:18:40.230 --> 00:18:45.390
 And we were starting a church with a few holdovers

430
00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:49.890
 from the old church and the idea was just for outreach.

431
00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:55.570
 And so I had long hair and dressed down and casual

432
00:18:55.570 --> 00:19:00.230
 and I went through with the core team that I was with.

433
00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:01.490
 I talked to them and said,

434
00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:03.230
 look, I'm gonna give you a flinch test

435
00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:07.030
 because we're not looking for the Baptist we used to have.

436
00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:09.110
 We're looking for folks off the street.

437
00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:10.410
 You know, not necessarily homeless,

438
00:19:10.570 --> 00:19:12.190
 but folks who just they're staying home

439
00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:13.330
 on Sunday otherwise.

440
00:19:13.990 --> 00:19:15.490
 And so I gave them a flinch test.

441
00:19:16.250 --> 00:19:17.890
 How do you feel if somebody walks in

442
00:19:17.890 --> 00:19:21.730
 they're wearing a Def Leppard or a concert t-shirt

443
00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:23.710
 like they're not dressed for church, right?

444
00:19:23.710 --> 00:19:24.870
 You know, what about piercings?

445
00:19:24.870 --> 00:19:26.110
 What about a gay couple?

446
00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:27.850
 What if you smell alcohol in their breath?

447
00:19:27.990 --> 00:19:30.030
 Like, do you feel like you can handle this

448
00:19:30.030 --> 00:19:32.550
 because these are the people that we're looking to bring.

449
00:19:33.270 --> 00:19:36.110
 And folks said, yep, absolutely, let's do it.

450
00:19:37.070 --> 00:19:38.210
 Well, yeah, my dad's been a minister

451
00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:40.430
 or day minister for many, many years himself.

452
00:19:40.670 --> 00:19:43.530
 And he has that same viewpoint, you know, you do.

453
00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:47.210
 He's just, you know, come all right, open arms.

454
00:19:47.810 --> 00:19:49.070
 You know, anybody who's showing up

455
00:19:49.070 --> 00:19:50.950
 is really inside looking for a change.

456
00:19:51.050 --> 00:19:52.230
 So they're trying to make the best step.

457
00:19:52.390 --> 00:19:53.410
 They're just not sure,

458
00:19:53.410 --> 00:19:54.710
 but they need that person to guide them

459
00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:56.490
 which is exactly what a pastor does.

460
00:19:57.490 --> 00:19:58.770
 Can I ask you this though?

461
00:19:59.210 --> 00:20:01.930
 And this isn't to be divisive or anything.

462
00:20:02.450 --> 00:20:03.790
 And I have a genuine interest

463
00:20:03.790 --> 00:20:05.130
 because I have studied a lot

464
00:20:05.130 --> 00:20:07.010
 about the Middle East and the history

465
00:20:07.010 --> 00:20:08.730
 when it comes to Islam and whatnot.

466
00:20:09.270 --> 00:20:11.390
 So question being, and your findings,

467
00:20:11.530 --> 00:20:13.870
 what did you find if we're comparing

468
00:20:13.870 --> 00:20:16.710
 and contrasting Islam to Christianity?

469
00:20:16.790 --> 00:20:18.650
 Because as of now, I am currently reading the Quran.

470
00:20:18.710 --> 00:20:20.430
 I'm trying to understand it more and dive deeper.

471
00:20:20.830 --> 00:20:21.650
 I have my own opinions,

472
00:20:21.650 --> 00:20:23.870
 but I just wanna see your point of view

473
00:20:23.870 --> 00:20:24.890
 from being a pastor.

474
00:20:26.110 --> 00:20:26.770
 And what'd you think?

475
00:20:27.810 --> 00:20:33.090
 Well, there's differences between the religion, obviously,

476
00:20:33.090 --> 00:20:35.690
 and then there's a lot that's same among the people.

477
00:20:36.710 --> 00:20:39.190
 So I'll try to tie these together.

478
00:20:40.150 --> 00:20:42.290
 A number of my informants that I had

479
00:20:42.890 --> 00:20:46.590
 working national security, counter-terrorism were Muslims

480
00:20:47.310 --> 00:20:49.990
 and they were dedicated to America.

481
00:20:50.030 --> 00:20:51.870
 And these were some of the nicest guys.

482
00:20:52.470 --> 00:20:58.110
 And people can talk the rhetoric of Muslims just wanna kill

483
00:20:58.110 --> 00:20:59.610
 because that's part of their religion.

484
00:21:00.630 --> 00:21:02.530
 And there's certainly people out there

485
00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:06.310
 who belong to Muslim faith who may believe that.

486
00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:09.730
 But by and large, the good Muslim people I met

487
00:21:09.730 --> 00:21:11.530
 were like the good Christians I met.

488
00:21:11.610 --> 00:21:16.770
 And they had many of the same habits and kindnesses

489
00:21:18.050 --> 00:21:19.590
 and desire to help people.

490
00:21:20.790 --> 00:21:22.290
 They held those similar.

491
00:21:22.290 --> 00:21:24.030
 Now, as far as the religions go,

492
00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:28.570
 I used to do Jiu-Jitsu back in the day

493
00:21:28.570 --> 00:21:29.990
 when I was working in Chicago.

494
00:21:30.330 --> 00:21:35.450
 And my instructor was a Muslim and he knew what I did.

495
00:21:35.470 --> 00:21:37.810
 And he brought me in and he asked me,

496
00:21:37.910 --> 00:21:39.730
 he gave me some brochures to read

497
00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:41.390
 and I'm always willing to learn

498
00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:42.610
 and I'd like to know more.

499
00:21:43.050 --> 00:21:45.350
 So I read them and he said, later he goes,

500
00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:46.690
 so what do you think about them?

501
00:21:47.110 --> 00:21:49.450
 I'm like, yeah, man, you're not convincing me

502
00:21:50.130 --> 00:21:53.450
 that the proofs and the arguments are,

503
00:21:54.910 --> 00:21:56.130
 I don't believe in Islam.

504
00:21:56.290 --> 00:21:58.070
 I don't believe it's a,

505
00:22:00.550 --> 00:22:01.770
 I don't believe it.

506
00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:04.070
 I respect people who do follow it.

507
00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:06.950
 I have opinions on how that can help them in their lives.

508
00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:12.670
 So sometimes I'd sit down with my one informant

509
00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:15.190
 and he would start asking me questions about the Bible

510
00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:18.230
 and we'd quiz each other back and forth

511
00:22:18.230 --> 00:22:20.230
 and I really enjoyed engaging that way.

512
00:22:21.010 --> 00:22:21.570
 Gotcha.

513
00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:26.930
 So the reason I bring that up is I have the belief

514
00:22:26.930 --> 00:22:29.590
 that I can't believe that everybody has a view

515
00:22:29.590 --> 00:22:32.030
 all Muslims bad and they're just people.

516
00:22:33.150 --> 00:22:34.650
 People, reality is we're all born

517
00:22:34.650 --> 00:22:35.370
 into what we're born into.

518
00:22:35.450 --> 00:22:37.750
 We don't choose where we're born,

519
00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:40.030
 what we're born into.

520
00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:43.650
 And I've interviewed a few prominent people

521
00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:47.610
 that can represent Iran,

522
00:22:47.610 --> 00:22:51.330
 journalists and an activist as well.

523
00:22:52.170 --> 00:22:54.290
 And their view is the same.

524
00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:56.870
 They think that these extremists out there,

525
00:22:57.050 --> 00:22:58.690
 they don't really truly believe in Islam.

526
00:22:58.790 --> 00:23:01.790
 They're just using it as a way to fuel the flame

527
00:23:02.330 --> 00:23:04.250
 and just spread the ideology

528
00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:06.030
 and the way that they're trying to present it

529
00:23:06.030 --> 00:23:08.430
 to capture people and followers

530
00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:10.130
 to be able to do the dirty work for them,

531
00:23:10.310 --> 00:23:12.450
 but not really true believers in the faith itself.

532
00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:14.710
 And that's the sad part about it

533
00:23:14.710 --> 00:23:18.210
 is it's so easily used as a doctrine of subjugation

534
00:23:18.210 --> 00:23:21.630
 and conquered when it's really not everybody's view.

535
00:23:22.250 --> 00:23:25.210
 It would be like if you and I took the literal,

536
00:23:25.210 --> 00:23:26.730
 literal writings of the Bible

537
00:23:26.730 --> 00:23:28.650
 and we just went out and started stoning people.

538
00:23:29.470 --> 00:23:31.050
 I mean, we're not supposed to do that,

539
00:23:31.050 --> 00:23:32.650
 especially after the New Testament, right?

540
00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:34.250
 But at the same time,

541
00:23:35.110 --> 00:23:38.030
 we unfortunately have those people who enforce

542
00:23:38.890 --> 00:23:40.930
 their view of Islam that way.

543
00:23:41.390 --> 00:23:43.150
 Like, nope, it's the literal, literal teachings

544
00:23:43.150 --> 00:23:45.550
 and there's no modern adaption

545
00:23:45.550 --> 00:23:47.730
 and we're gonna go and conquer and kill.

546
00:23:48.010 --> 00:23:49.170
 But I know that's not everybody.

547
00:23:49.310 --> 00:23:50.650
 So that's why I ask these questions

548
00:23:50.650 --> 00:23:51.910
 because you have this experience

549
00:23:51.910 --> 00:23:53.150
 interacting with these people.

550
00:23:55.090 --> 00:23:55.710
 Oh yeah.

551
00:23:57.010 --> 00:23:59.030
 And anyone with bad intent

552
00:23:59.030 --> 00:24:00.790
 will use whatever means they need.

553
00:24:01.090 --> 00:24:06.070
 Just as the one convert to ISIS that I mentioned,

554
00:24:06.390 --> 00:24:12.210
 he's just looking for a reason to justify his anger.

555
00:24:12.570 --> 00:24:12.990
 Yeah.

556
00:24:13.690 --> 00:24:14.690
 So here we go.

557
00:24:14.730 --> 00:24:15.310
 This is best.

558
00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:16.930
 I can use it with Christianity.

559
00:24:17.070 --> 00:24:18.930
 I can use it with whatever I want.

560
00:24:19.790 --> 00:24:20.510
 Yeah, agreed.

561
00:24:21.610 --> 00:24:23.790
 And we're gonna get off these two topics in a bit,

562
00:24:23.790 --> 00:24:25.830
 but I wanted to circle back into counter-terrorism.

563
00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:27.150
 And the reason I was really interested

564
00:24:27.730 --> 00:24:29.470
 in what your thoughts were with the threads

565
00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:33.230
 because looking at the CBP website,

566
00:24:33.330 --> 00:24:34.310
 and I track these things.

567
00:24:34.350 --> 00:24:37.310
 I've done quite a few shows on seeing what's coming in,

568
00:24:37.310 --> 00:24:38.170
 going out over the borders.

569
00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:39.930
 And I don't know if this is current.

570
00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:40.810
 I didn't look it up recently,

571
00:24:40.810 --> 00:24:42.570
 but not that long ago, a few months ago,

572
00:24:43.270 --> 00:24:44.610
 they've actually encountered,

573
00:24:44.610 --> 00:24:46.270
 you know that encounters versus gotaways

574
00:24:46.270 --> 00:24:47.370
 are two different things, right?

575
00:24:47.370 --> 00:24:49.430
 They don't know who they get, who gets away,

576
00:24:49.530 --> 00:24:51.610
 but the people they encountered, there was enough

577
00:24:51.610 --> 00:24:53.530
 terrorists encountered at our borders

578
00:24:53.530 --> 00:24:57.130
 to put 15 terrorists in every state of the USA.

579
00:24:58.110 --> 00:24:58.590
 15.

580
00:24:59.290 --> 00:24:59.930
 That's crazy.

581
00:25:00.650 --> 00:25:02.750
 That's actually a literal small terrorist cell.

582
00:25:04.750 --> 00:25:05.930
 That's crazy to think that.

583
00:25:06.050 --> 00:25:07.110
 And those are people that they encountered.

584
00:25:07.970 --> 00:25:10.130
 So they stopped those people.

585
00:25:10.130 --> 00:25:12.210
 And so a lot of people are,

586
00:25:13.090 --> 00:25:15.030
 they try to say, well, the borders, whatever,

587
00:25:15.630 --> 00:25:16.750
 these things aren't happening.

588
00:25:17.190 --> 00:25:20.330
 It's just people hating on foreigners or immigrants.

589
00:25:21.030 --> 00:25:23.370
 And I think it's important to realize that,

590
00:25:23.470 --> 00:25:24.710
 yeah, there are threats against the US

591
00:25:24.710 --> 00:25:26.390
 and that we do have to protect our borders.

592
00:25:27.610 --> 00:25:29.410
 I don't know if you have anything else to add on that,

593
00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:33.390
 but I just wanted to bring that little data set up.

594
00:25:33.470 --> 00:25:34.690
 I'm sure you probably already knew that.

595
00:25:34.810 --> 00:25:35.930
 There will always be people.

596
00:25:36.350 --> 00:25:39.430
 Yeah, there will always be people trying to get in

597
00:25:39.430 --> 00:25:42.050
 and all that you can hope for.

598
00:25:42.530 --> 00:25:46.970
 Again, most of the recent attacks have been folks

599
00:25:46.970 --> 00:25:49.350
 who have been here, lived a life,

600
00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:51.750
 but then get further radicalized.

601
00:25:51.930 --> 00:25:54.950
 I was working with a buddy in another division

602
00:25:54.950 --> 00:26:00.430
 and he has had a case on a guy who just,

603
00:26:03.450 --> 00:26:06.130
 so one thing he knows is this young man

604
00:26:06.130 --> 00:26:07.570
 is into child pornography

605
00:26:08.290 --> 00:26:11.750
 and we both came to the same conclusion

606
00:26:11.750 --> 00:26:17.890
 that the one way that he can just expiate all his sins

607
00:26:18.750 --> 00:26:20.510
 is through a mass killing.

608
00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:23.630
 But this is an individual who was born here.

609
00:26:24.230 --> 00:26:24.310
 Interesting.

610
00:26:25.890 --> 00:26:28.350
 So the threats will come from wherever.

611
00:26:28.530 --> 00:26:31.530
 It's just who's gonna be the person who says,

612
00:26:31.830 --> 00:26:34.490
 I need to do this to purify myself.

613
00:26:36.630 --> 00:26:38.070
 So in this person's mind,

614
00:26:38.070 --> 00:26:39.450
 he would be absolved of his sins

615
00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:41.490
 by carrying out this mass killing.

616
00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:42.830
 Did I hear that correctly?

617
00:26:43.330 --> 00:26:43.750
 Or did I?

618
00:26:44.310 --> 00:26:46.570
 Yeah, so if you remember the,

619
00:26:46.850 --> 00:26:48.150
 I think it was over Christmas,

620
00:26:48.390 --> 00:26:50.390
 the Nice France attacks

621
00:26:50.390 --> 00:26:53.430
 where there was an individual who drove a truck

622
00:26:53.430 --> 00:26:57.310
 through crowds and his ex-wife said,

623
00:26:57.450 --> 00:26:59.050
 this guy eats, he was Muslim.

624
00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:00.470
 He said, this guy eats bacon.

625
00:27:01.630 --> 00:27:03.450
 Well, yeah, he had lived a life

626
00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:06.510
 where he had been like an apostate Muslim.

627
00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:07.350
 He had fallen away

628
00:27:07.350 --> 00:27:12.070
 and the one way he could pay penance for all his sins

629
00:27:12.070 --> 00:27:14.590
 would be to carry out a jihadist attack

630
00:27:14.590 --> 00:27:17.330
 and we were both concerned

631
00:27:17.330 --> 00:27:19.070
 that this kid is somebody who would say,

632
00:27:19.070 --> 00:27:20.430
 I'm so terrible.

633
00:27:21.110 --> 00:27:23.930
 The only thing I can do for Allah that's good enough

634
00:27:23.930 --> 00:27:25.170
 would be to kill people.

635
00:27:29.490 --> 00:27:31.610
 Yeah, that's sad.

636
00:27:33.790 --> 00:27:36.350
 Well, let's try to lighten this up.

637
00:27:37.090 --> 00:27:38.010
 That was all my fault.

638
00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:39.510
 I asked those questions.

639
00:27:41.390 --> 00:27:42.570
 Let's talk about your book.

640
00:27:42.590 --> 00:27:44.290
 Let's get into the crimes against children.

641
00:27:44.790 --> 00:27:45.510
 Well, yeah, right.

642
00:27:45.590 --> 00:27:46.350
 Let's go there, that's next.

643
00:27:46.850 --> 00:27:49.890
 No, well, listen, you did write your book

644
00:27:50.350 --> 00:27:51.430
 and from what I read,

645
00:27:52.370 --> 00:27:54.710
 it's written in a humorous type of way

646
00:27:54.710 --> 00:27:57.310
 so obviously you were able to reflect back on some things.

647
00:27:57.390 --> 00:28:00.090
 You were able to try to learn

648
00:28:00.090 --> 00:28:01.730
 and make light of some situations.

649
00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:03.750
 I'm sure you went through a lot of horrible things

650
00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:04.710
 doing what you did

651
00:28:04.710 --> 00:28:07.450
 but maybe we can lighten the mood a bit here

652
00:28:08.310 --> 00:28:09.170
 moving forward.

653
00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:10.250
 Yeah, yeah.

654
00:28:11.290 --> 00:28:12.410
 I'll tell you a story.

655
00:28:14.190 --> 00:28:16.690
 I was working with some IRS agents

656
00:28:16.690 --> 00:28:18.650
 and so I work out of the Cleveland division,

657
00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:21.150
 I did in the Toledo office.

658
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:22.290
 So it's a satellite office.

659
00:28:22.290 --> 00:28:24.110
 We have the upper half of the state of Ohio

660
00:28:24.110 --> 00:28:27.070
 and one of the IRS agents came to me and said,

661
00:28:27.610 --> 00:28:29.290
 hey, we got this case

662
00:28:29.290 --> 00:28:31.630
 and the case was, it's fascinating,

663
00:28:31.630 --> 00:28:33.130
 but I'll have to go through it real quick.

664
00:28:33.610 --> 00:28:36.770
 There was a blue collar guy who owned a duplex.

665
00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:41.650
 He let it out to his tenants

666
00:28:41.650 --> 00:28:43.270
 that he had been saving a lot of money,

667
00:28:43.390 --> 00:28:44.630
 had $2 million saved.

668
00:28:45.410 --> 00:28:48.070
 He died by falling downstairs.

669
00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:50.770
 Granted, he used to drink a lot too

670
00:28:50.770 --> 00:28:52.890
 so they were investigated.

671
00:28:53.090 --> 00:28:55.570
 The tenants were let off the hook

672
00:28:56.130 --> 00:28:58.150
 and then out came a will that said

673
00:28:58.150 --> 00:28:59.970
 all of my money goes to my tenants.

674
00:29:00.570 --> 00:29:03.590
 So in this, there was a couple

675
00:29:04.670 --> 00:29:07.450
 and the dad and the dad was upset

676
00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:08.710
 that he wasn't getting enough cut

677
00:29:08.710 --> 00:29:11.030
 and so he turned them into the IRS

678
00:29:11.470 --> 00:29:13.690
 and they had had an attorney on hand too

679
00:29:13.690 --> 00:29:14.710
 to forge the will.

680
00:29:15.450 --> 00:29:16.950
 But they went through all of this.

681
00:29:17.090 --> 00:29:18.590
 They all got convicted

682
00:29:19.990 --> 00:29:21.730
 and I don't know why the dad went to the IRS.

683
00:29:21.790 --> 00:29:23.350
 That looks like an FBI case all day,

684
00:29:23.350 --> 00:29:25.050
 but anyway, they did a great job,

685
00:29:25.070 --> 00:29:25.850
 got the case together

686
00:29:25.850 --> 00:29:27.270
 but they're getting ready for trial

687
00:29:27.270 --> 00:29:30.410
 and they said, hey, we need to go back

688
00:29:30.410 --> 00:29:31.410
 and get a search warrant

689
00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:34.090
 because we didn't pick up the man's ashes

690
00:29:34.090 --> 00:29:36.570
 and part of the defense is going to be,

691
00:29:36.890 --> 00:29:38.850
 hey, we loved him, he loved us

692
00:29:38.850 --> 00:29:42.250
 but when we went through the man's ashes,

693
00:29:42.270 --> 00:29:45.650
 we're literally sitting in a takeout box on the mantle

694
00:29:46.270 --> 00:29:47.790
 and we need to get that as evidence

695
00:29:48.150 --> 00:29:49.570
 and we don't want to embarrass ourselves

696
00:29:49.570 --> 00:29:53.350
 so would you, like IRS agents said, I'll write it

697
00:29:53.350 --> 00:29:55.670
 but I want you to be the affiant

698
00:29:55.670 --> 00:29:57.230
 and swear it out and I said, no problem.

699
00:29:57.670 --> 00:29:59.530
 So we went back and had a couple

700
00:29:59.530 --> 00:30:01.710
 of our evidence response folks with us too

701
00:30:01.710 --> 00:30:02.710
 and we searched the place

702
00:30:02.710 --> 00:30:05.330
 and it was waterlogged,

703
00:30:05.410 --> 00:30:07.590
 there was a drip in the ceiling

704
00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:10.070
 but I knew that our federal prosecutors

705
00:30:10.070 --> 00:30:11.090
 were going to check on it

706
00:30:11.090 --> 00:30:12.630
 because this was an important case

707
00:30:12.630 --> 00:30:15.090
 so knowing that they would come out,

708
00:30:16.030 --> 00:30:19.610
 I took an Amazon box and I went to my fireplace

709
00:30:20.070 --> 00:30:21.750
 and I filled it with ashes

710
00:30:22.330 --> 00:30:24.150
 and right when they pulled up,

711
00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:25.990
 I walked out and I'd cut a hole

712
00:30:25.990 --> 00:30:27.570
 in the bottom corner of the box

713
00:30:27.570 --> 00:30:29.750
 and I held it up and I said, guys,

714
00:30:29.830 --> 00:30:32.370
 I found it while ashes were pouring out

715
00:30:32.370 --> 00:30:34.570
 and the prosecutors just turned white

716
00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:36.670
 and that got me in trouble

717
00:30:36.670 --> 00:30:37.490
 but I didn't care.

718
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:41.320
 Whatever.

719
00:30:43.560 --> 00:30:47.620
 So, sorry about that, I needed a sip.

720
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:48.920
 Had a long day so I need the coffee.

721
00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:55.580
 The thing about everything that you've been through

722
00:30:55.580 --> 00:30:57.200
 and thanks for lightening that up a bit.

723
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.240
 Let me ask you this though,

724
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:02.860
 well, do you still consider yourself a pastor

725
00:31:02.860 --> 00:31:05.580
 or are you completely done?

726
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:06.580
 No.

727
00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:09.820
 I enjoyed giving the sermons,

728
00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:11.160
 I enjoyed working with people

729
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.580
 but once I got out, I'm out.

730
00:31:14.760 --> 00:31:16.060
 Although now I would have plenty

731
00:31:16.060 --> 00:31:17.920
 of sermon illustrations to give so.

732
00:31:18.380 --> 00:31:19.680
 Plus if I carried a gun,

733
00:31:19.800 --> 00:31:21.280
 I think offerings would go up too.

734
00:31:22.100 --> 00:31:23.120
 Of course they would.

735
00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:26.040
 What about your feelings?

736
00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:27.240
 Turn around one more time.

737
00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:32.940
 What is your feeling about what seems to be a move

738
00:31:33.620 --> 00:31:35.960
 or well, it seems to be a movement lately

739
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:40.100
 of returning to the Judeo-Christian values

740
00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:43.680
 that many people say America was based on.

741
00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:45.960
 What is your perspective as an ex-pastor,

742
00:31:46.020 --> 00:31:46.900
 someone who's devout Christian?

743
00:31:47.040 --> 00:31:48.080
 What do you think of that?

744
00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:49.460
 Or do you think it's just all theater?

745
00:31:52.760 --> 00:31:54.640
 My feeling has always been

746
00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:57.460
 like I'm willing to share my beliefs.

747
00:31:58.020 --> 00:32:04.220
 I've also realized that before I give you my opinion,

748
00:32:04.520 --> 00:32:07.060
 I'd like to ask if I could have permission.

749
00:32:07.940 --> 00:32:13.530
 So the idea of telling people how to live

750
00:32:13.530 --> 00:32:15.330
 is gonna be inauthentic.

751
00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:18.530
 I mean, I knew that when I was evangelizing

752
00:32:18.530 --> 00:32:19.610
 and talking to people,

753
00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:22.570
 I can tell you, you come to my church,

754
00:32:22.570 --> 00:32:24.150
 you're gonna hear what I have to say

755
00:32:24.150 --> 00:32:27.430
 but that decision that you're making,

756
00:32:27.430 --> 00:32:29.110
 it cannot be coerced.

757
00:32:29.270 --> 00:32:30.810
 You can't be argued into it.

758
00:32:30.870 --> 00:32:32.850
 I can't threaten you with it.

759
00:32:33.670 --> 00:32:36.430
 My favorite parable from the New Testament

760
00:32:36.430 --> 00:32:40.870
 is when Jesus told about the treasure in a field.

761
00:32:41.230 --> 00:32:43.770
 He says the kingdom of God is like a man

762
00:32:43.770 --> 00:32:46.230
 who finds a valuable treasure in a field.

763
00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:49.330
 So he sells all that he has so that he can buy the

764
00:32:49.330 --> 00:32:52.510
 field and that's what people have to come to.

765
00:32:52.510 --> 00:32:57.410
 You have to say, oh, this way of living, this life,

766
00:32:58.270 --> 00:33:00.050
 this having a different purpose,

767
00:33:00.750 --> 00:33:03.830
 that's worth so much more than what I had.

768
00:33:04.370 --> 00:33:09.270
 I'm going to willingly leave that

769
00:33:09.270 --> 00:33:10.890
 so that I can follow this

770
00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:12.530
 because I think this is much better.

771
00:33:13.270 --> 00:33:15.810
 So it has to be, if we invoke,

772
00:33:16.450 --> 00:33:18.790
 this is what Christian law should be.

773
00:33:18.790 --> 00:33:20.590
 This is a lifestyle you should live.

774
00:33:20.590 --> 00:33:22.430
 It's just performative.

775
00:33:23.230 --> 00:33:25.970
 It's not people doing what they want to.

776
00:33:26.450 --> 00:33:30.110
 And I don't know that it should be imposed on somebody.

777
00:33:30.470 --> 00:33:32.190
 If you say, hey, look at my life.

778
00:33:32.890 --> 00:33:34.310
 I have things together.

779
00:33:34.350 --> 00:33:35.130
 I'm happy.

780
00:33:35.550 --> 00:33:37.090
 I'm pleased with my beliefs.

781
00:33:37.250 --> 00:33:39.070
 And someone goes, I like that.

782
00:33:39.110 --> 00:33:39.830
 Tell me more.

783
00:33:40.550 --> 00:33:41.430
 Then that's authentic.

784
00:33:43.210 --> 00:33:47.190
 Okay, so what about the concern out there lately

785
00:33:47.870 --> 00:33:50.030
 of America losing who they are though?

786
00:33:50.730 --> 00:33:53.150
 Let's say, for example, and again,

787
00:33:53.590 --> 00:33:54.490
 just using it as an example

788
00:33:54.490 --> 00:33:55.510
 because a lot of people think this,

789
00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:59.270
 that America becomes all of a sudden 80, 90% Islam

790
00:33:59.910 --> 00:34:01.890
 or let's say another religion,

791
00:34:01.910 --> 00:34:05.150
 let's say 90% Hindu or Shinto or whatever it is.

792
00:34:05.930 --> 00:34:08.630
 A lot of people think that we are kind of

793
00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:10.790
 heading that way and getting away from

794
00:34:10.790 --> 00:34:14.389
 what is believed to be the founding of what America is.

795
00:34:14.830 --> 00:34:16.090
 And a lot of people do feel that,

796
00:34:16.610 --> 00:34:18.750
 look, I totally understand where you come from.

797
00:34:18.870 --> 00:34:19.949
 I mean, I could say the same thing

798
00:34:19.949 --> 00:34:21.270
 about Christians, Catholics, doesn't matter.

799
00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:23.350
 Everybody sins Monday through Friday

800
00:34:23.350 --> 00:34:25.050
 and they pray on Sunday and they want to be forgiven.

801
00:34:25.150 --> 00:34:25.670
 I get it.

802
00:34:25.790 --> 00:34:28.110
 But at the same time, a lot of people believe

803
00:34:29.290 --> 00:34:32.150
 that that is part of the core of who we are

804
00:34:32.150 --> 00:34:34.030
 as the USA, for example.

805
00:34:34.570 --> 00:34:36.889
 So do you have any concern about that shift?

806
00:34:37.370 --> 00:34:38.710
 Like one day you wake up

807
00:34:39.170 --> 00:34:41.050
 and again, just because we talked about it,

808
00:34:41.050 --> 00:34:43.050
 there's 500 mosques in your city or whatever,

809
00:34:43.489 --> 00:34:45.550
 or it could be a bunch of Hindu temples or whatever.

810
00:34:46.090 --> 00:34:47.830
 Would you throw any religion in there?

811
00:34:48.489 --> 00:34:51.969
 Is there any concern on your part of that,

812
00:34:51.969 --> 00:34:53.230
 of America becoming something else?

813
00:34:55.770 --> 00:35:02.590
 My only concern is that it might be uncomfortable for me.

814
00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:07.110
 I've been to plenty black churches

815
00:35:07.810 --> 00:35:10.970
 and it's not how I worship.

816
00:35:11.190 --> 00:35:12.550
 And so I feel uncomfortable.

817
00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:14.630
 And plus now I'm in the minority.

818
00:35:15.170 --> 00:35:17.330
 Yeah, those things naturally feel uncomfortable

819
00:35:17.330 --> 00:35:19.610
 to many people and I'm one of them.

820
00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:27.050
 And so if America became a largely Muslim country,

821
00:35:27.490 --> 00:35:29.570
 that would feel uncomfortable to me

822
00:35:30.290 --> 00:35:32.290
 because I'm not familiar with it.

823
00:35:33.030 --> 00:35:37.400
 But I like the freedoms.

824
00:35:38.040 --> 00:35:41.400
 And if we are a largely different religion

825
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.280
 in the country, I just want the values to be ones

826
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:48.440
 that show respect for people and show kindness for folks.

827
00:35:49.180 --> 00:35:51.380
 And again, I know you're saying any religion.

828
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:57.040
 I would hope that whether we are a largely Christian nation

829
00:35:57.040 --> 00:36:00.320
 that those who lead and make laws

830
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.580
 and interact with each other,

831
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:07.420
 embrace the values in Christianity that say,

832
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.220
 love your neighbor, love God,

833
00:36:12.380 --> 00:36:14.360
 show kindness to others, take care of others.

834
00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:17.920
 So I would hope that those similar factors

835
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:19.900
 that might be in Islam or other religions

836
00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:21.940
 would be the kinds that come out too.

837
00:36:22.180 --> 00:36:25.140
 I can understand the concern of a change

838
00:36:25.140 --> 00:36:26.880
 because nobody likes change.

839
00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:33.020
 It's, you don't know me, but if you knew me,

840
00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:35.060
 you would know I hate change.

841
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.840
 I don't like, I get the same thing at Chipotle

842
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:39.620
 every time, cause that tastes good.

843
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:42.860
 And so I don't want to chance something different.

844
00:36:42.940 --> 00:36:43.460
 Absolutely.

845
00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:46.680
 And so that I think that's part of the fear.

846
00:36:47.240 --> 00:36:50.940
 I am, I live in a rut and I don't like doing things

847
00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:52.100
 that are different and uncomfortable.

848
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.220
 And so, yeah, that would make me feel bad,

849
00:36:55.220 --> 00:36:59.620
 but I would also have hope for whatever people have

850
00:36:59.620 --> 00:37:00.680
 in them that's goodness.

851
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:03.080
 I mean, we can become a Christian nation,

852
00:37:03.380 --> 00:37:04.840
 even more Christian nation,

853
00:37:05.060 --> 00:37:08.540
 but the way you interpret the Bible

854
00:37:08.540 --> 00:37:11.940
 is one that harms me or my family.

855
00:37:12.700 --> 00:37:14.140
 And like we talked about,

856
00:37:14.140 --> 00:37:17.160
 anybody can use any platform to do harm

857
00:37:17.160 --> 00:37:18.560
 if they've got a twisted heart.

858
00:37:18.980 --> 00:37:22.400
 So I would just hope for the goodness to come out

859
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:26.580
 in people as far as some new change in our country.

860
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.900
 So respect that answer, but let me press that a bit

861
00:37:32.680 --> 00:37:35.420
 because again, my father was a minister

862
00:37:35.420 --> 00:37:37.960
 and I couldn't even tell you how many times

863
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:39.040
 I read the Bible back and forth.

864
00:37:39.200 --> 00:37:40.600
 And I probably don't even remember most of it

865
00:37:40.600 --> 00:37:41.600
 anymore, to be honest.

866
00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:43.900
 But I'll just say this.

867
00:37:44.680 --> 00:37:47.540
 Let's just take from the standpoint of being a Christian.

868
00:37:47.900 --> 00:37:49.460
 I'm gonna completely say this.

869
00:37:49.520 --> 00:37:51.320
 We know America has turned its back.

870
00:37:51.580 --> 00:37:51.840
 We know.

871
00:37:52.620 --> 00:37:54.680
 Nobody really takes Christianity seriously.

872
00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:55.620
 It's almost like tradition.

873
00:37:56.620 --> 00:37:57.460
 The majority, by the way,

874
00:37:57.460 --> 00:37:58.780
 not saying like you or anybody,

875
00:37:58.880 --> 00:37:59.880
 but the majority of people,

876
00:38:00.260 --> 00:38:01.400
 it just becomes a habit.

877
00:38:01.540 --> 00:38:02.540
 It's like we go to church on Sunday,

878
00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:03.720
 we dress our best, we do this,

879
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:05.060
 we have our little community,

880
00:38:05.100 --> 00:38:06.720
 and then they forget about it

881
00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:07.720
 once they walk out the door.

882
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:10.760
 With that being said though,

883
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:15.380
 for someone who would be a devout Christian,

884
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:17.380
 sorry, fumbling my words here,

885
00:38:17.660 --> 00:38:19.480
 someone who would be a devout Christian,

886
00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:23.580
 I'd have to ask that if there's one God

887
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:27.060
 and no one comes to the Father,

888
00:38:27.060 --> 00:38:29.440
 except through me, obviously, Jesus Christ,

889
00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:31.400
 like if that is the only thing

890
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:33.020
 that is supposed to be true,

891
00:38:34.040 --> 00:38:36.920
 then would it be acceptable if America

892
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:38.420
 was truly a Christian nation

893
00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:41.980
 to turn to another religion or another God?

894
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:48.800
 I espouse what you're saying

895
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:50.520
 that there is one,

896
00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:54.960
 I do believe there is one true religion

897
00:38:55.420 --> 00:38:56.600
 and it's Christianity.

898
00:38:58.820 --> 00:39:01.980
 I've even seen this in a micro level though too

899
00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:06.400
 that the reason we should never have,

900
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:07.900
 for instance, a theocracy,

901
00:39:08.620 --> 00:39:10.700
 so you guys vote me in

902
00:39:10.700 --> 00:39:13.640
 because I know God and I know what he wants.

903
00:39:14.700 --> 00:39:16.640
 We see this in churches

904
00:39:16.640 --> 00:39:19.800
 where the pastor has the word of God

905
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:21.040
 and he speaks for God,

906
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:22.840
 but the pastor is a sinner

907
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.140
 and now his abuses are being covered up

908
00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:28.500
 because what we have to respect

909
00:39:28.500 --> 00:39:30.080
 the man of God who's a leader.

910
00:39:30.640 --> 00:39:32.000
 So even in Christianity,

911
00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:35.180
 that's the correct religion,

912
00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.160
 let's use that as the default idea.

913
00:39:38.640 --> 00:39:41.520
 I do not trust you, me or anyone

914
00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:45.380
 to be the proper arbiter of what God wants for us.

915
00:39:45.980 --> 00:39:47.360
 We can look at the same Bible.

916
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:50.840
 If you've done any study yourself,

917
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.340
 you've read this respected theologian saying,

918
00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:55.020
 this is what the Bible says

919
00:39:55.020 --> 00:39:59.140
 and this respected theologian saying, he's wrong.

920
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:08.000
 I would fear when it's what God says,

921
00:40:08.580 --> 00:40:11.400
 that's where real damage can be done

922
00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:13.380
 because you can't question that.

923
00:40:14.100 --> 00:40:21.360
 So I fall back to let's have people live an authentic life.

924
00:40:22.580 --> 00:40:25.260
 You do your best because you follow God

925
00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:27.400
 and you think this is what it says

926
00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:29.360
 and as long as that's showing kindness to others,

927
00:40:29.600 --> 00:40:34.300
 fantastic and I hope others will do the same

928
00:40:34.300 --> 00:40:35.660
 for whatever they're following it

929
00:40:35.660 --> 00:40:37.380
 even if they're agnostic atheist

930
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:38.780
 or follow anything else.

931
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:40.720
 Gotcha.

932
00:40:41.380 --> 00:40:42.380
 Well, and what you said is correct.

933
00:40:42.500 --> 00:40:44.160
 I mean, a lot of people don't realize

934
00:40:44.160 --> 00:40:44.880
 when you step back,

935
00:40:44.900 --> 00:40:47.020
 we have so many different denominations

936
00:40:47.020 --> 00:40:50.060
 and sects and whatnot of Christianity and of itself

937
00:40:50.060 --> 00:40:52.620
 because everybody interprets it different, right?

938
00:40:52.660 --> 00:40:55.060
 Where everybody focuses on one thing in the Bible

939
00:40:55.060 --> 00:40:58.480
 versus looking at it from a macro view.

940
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:00.520
 Some people are very Old Testament,

941
00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:01.420
 some are New Testament.

942
00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:03.040
 But I think in the end though,

943
00:41:03.040 --> 00:41:06.720
 the focus is on Jesus or God himself,

944
00:41:07.220 --> 00:41:07.860
 Father Almighty.

945
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.120
 Not to make this a theological discussion,

946
00:41:11.140 --> 00:41:12.280
 but I just wanted your opinion

947
00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:13.680
 that being someone who was a pastor.

948
00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:17.260
 So that's not trying to put you on the spot.

949
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:20.360
 I just wanted to get your insight on that.

950
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:23.860
 So get back to FBI.

951
00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:27.780
 What else can you tell us

952
00:41:27.780 --> 00:41:31.160
 that you've encountered that we should know as Americans?

953
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:32.900
 Like what is not being told to us?

954
00:41:32.900 --> 00:41:35.060
 And for example,

955
00:41:35.700 --> 00:41:36.900
 I don't know how much you know

956
00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:40.920
 about what Dan Bondino went through or et cetera,

957
00:41:40.940 --> 00:41:43.120
 but it seems like people like that,

958
00:41:43.120 --> 00:41:44.300
 they get on the other side

959
00:41:44.300 --> 00:41:46.700
 and it's almost like he went in like,

960
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:49.140
 oh dang, this is something different

961
00:41:49.140 --> 00:41:50.580
 or there's something else going on.

962
00:41:50.600 --> 00:41:52.500
 And then he steps out, goes back to his podcast.

963
00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:54.360
 And I don't know how you feel about him.

964
00:41:54.460 --> 00:41:55.060
 It doesn't really matter.

965
00:41:55.160 --> 00:41:55.880
 Just using as an example,

966
00:41:55.900 --> 00:41:57.920
 because a lot of people know that story.

967
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.680
 Is there anything you can say

968
00:42:00.680 --> 00:42:02.280
 like being on the other side

969
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.620
 that people should know about?

970
00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:05.460
 I know you probably can't give too much away,

971
00:42:05.720 --> 00:42:10.060
 but what can you tell people about what's happening?

972
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:13.960
 Yeah, I can tell you two things.

973
00:42:14.040 --> 00:42:15.980
 One is there's two FBIs.

974
00:42:15.980 --> 00:42:17.580
 And this was before Bondino.

975
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:21.500
 There has always been two FBIs

976
00:42:21.500 --> 00:42:24.260
 and that's DC and then the field.

977
00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:26.280
 So the things that make the news

978
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:29.800
 are the things that people debate about

979
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:32.640
 that it's not my buddies.

980
00:42:33.160 --> 00:42:35.020
 It's not people that I know.

981
00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:39.040
 Line FBI agents and the support staff,

982
00:42:39.120 --> 00:42:39.880
 the Intel analysts,

983
00:42:40.220 --> 00:42:42.240
 they're just out there trying to work a case

984
00:42:42.240 --> 00:42:44.700
 on people they think are bad guys who stole money

985
00:42:44.700 --> 00:42:46.640
 or harming kids, whatever it might be.

986
00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:48.240
 They don't care.

987
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.560
 They don't want any of that influence.

988
00:42:50.680 --> 00:42:53.580
 They don't want DC to get involved in their cases.

989
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:57.540
 And that's the worst thing that could happen in your life.

990
00:42:58.190 --> 00:43:01.360
 So that's one thing that whether you have

991
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.960
 or don't have confidence in what's in the headlines,

992
00:43:05.580 --> 00:43:09.020
 you can have confidence in the great majority

993
00:43:09.020 --> 00:43:09.980
 of individual agents

994
00:43:09.980 --> 00:43:12.720
 because they just wanna do what is proper and right.

995
00:43:14.140 --> 00:43:19.000
 And the second thing is I'd gone back to the church

996
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:21.560
 that I had planted early on in my career.

997
00:43:21.680 --> 00:43:24.640
 I'd been working drugs in Chicago for a while

998
00:43:24.640 --> 00:43:27.460
 and we were on numerous wiretaps.

999
00:43:27.660 --> 00:43:29.620
 Month after month, just tapping phones,

1000
00:43:29.680 --> 00:43:31.120
 which is fascinating in itself.

1001
00:43:31.720 --> 00:43:35.340
 And I had a fellow who was always very paranoid ask me,

1002
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:37.780
 he's like, so what can you tell me about phone tapping?

1003
00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:39.320
 Like, are they tapping my phone?

1004
00:43:40.540 --> 00:43:42.500
 And so this is something that people should know.

1005
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:44.720
 The amount of effort that it takes

1006
00:43:44.720 --> 00:43:47.540
 to get the authority to tap a person's phone,

1007
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:48.600
 you have to exhaust

1008
00:43:48.600 --> 00:43:50.460
 because that's the most intrusive act

1009
00:43:50.460 --> 00:43:53.300
 that you could do next to arresting someone

1010
00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:54.680
 is tapping their phone.

1011
00:43:55.100 --> 00:43:56.860
 So the level that you have to reach

1012
00:43:56.860 --> 00:43:58.820
 is extraordinarily high.

1013
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:00.760
 And then on top of that,

1014
00:44:01.060 --> 00:44:03.840
 the manpower and the hours it takes just to man

1015
00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:05.820
 me tapping your phone,

1016
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:08.780
 I need a whole squad of people surveillance regularly

1017
00:44:08.780 --> 00:44:10.260
 manning it around the clock

1018
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:14.080
 that if you're not this level bad guy,

1019
00:44:14.080 --> 00:44:15.600
 I'm not going through the efforts.

1020
00:44:16.080 --> 00:44:18.120
 So I can't speak to other agencies

1021
00:44:18.120 --> 00:44:19.120
 listening to your calls,

1022
00:44:19.160 --> 00:44:21.700
 but yeah, you gotta be a pretty bad guy

1023
00:44:21.700 --> 00:44:22.600
 to get your phone tapped.

1024
00:44:23.720 --> 00:44:25.620
 Oh man, okay.

1025
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:27.020
 So, and I know they're listening to me,

1026
00:44:27.020 --> 00:44:33.340
 but anyway, the thing is from your experience though,

1027
00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:33.900
 like we're gonna,

1028
00:44:34.180 --> 00:44:35.600
 I'm not saying you know anything about this,

1029
00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:38.720
 but people keep using the Epstein case

1030
00:44:38.720 --> 00:44:41.980
 as an example of two FBIs or what seems to be.

1031
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:44.580
 I've always asked the question

1032
00:44:44.580 --> 00:44:48.220
 and let me know if we are just off in America,

1033
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:49.420
 we just don't know what we're talking about,

1034
00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:50.560
 but I always wondered like,

1035
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:53.400
 why would the FBI spend so much money and resources

1036
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.060
 in an over two decades investigation

1037
00:44:56.060 --> 00:44:57.680
 if there was never anything there?

1038
00:45:01.210 --> 00:45:02.170
 And like that's the DC.

1039
00:45:05.110 --> 00:45:09.750
 So whatever division had it down in Florida,

1040
00:45:10.490 --> 00:45:12.450
 you would have had agents working it up.

1041
00:45:12.570 --> 00:45:13.810
 I've been there myself.

1042
00:45:14.070 --> 00:45:15.710
 So let me just give you the example where

1043
00:45:16.310 --> 00:45:21.890
 I had a case where the ex-wife

1044
00:45:21.890 --> 00:45:23.890
 of the president of a company

1045
00:45:23.890 --> 00:45:27.410
 installed cameras into the company

1046
00:45:27.890 --> 00:45:29.250
 and then people felt violated.

1047
00:45:29.290 --> 00:45:32.350
 Well, that's a wiretap violation.

1048
00:45:32.490 --> 00:45:35.950
 So you can't plan a camera, video and audio,

1049
00:45:36.190 --> 00:45:38.030
 that's called a Title III violation.

1050
00:45:38.670 --> 00:45:40.730
 So I worked the case up.

1051
00:45:41.350 --> 00:45:42.250
 The prosecutor said,

1052
00:45:42.270 --> 00:45:44.710
 well, I would only charge this

1053
00:45:44.710 --> 00:45:49.090
 if this was some type of corporate espionage.

1054
00:45:49.570 --> 00:45:50.610
 So I said, okay.

1055
00:45:50.610 --> 00:45:52.830
 I went back, did interviews and found,

1056
00:45:53.210 --> 00:45:56.450
 yes, the ex-wife was looking to gain information

1057
00:45:56.450 --> 00:46:00.870
 from those cameras to start a competitive business

1058
00:46:01.370 --> 00:46:02.350
 with another group.

1059
00:46:02.710 --> 00:46:06.130
 Brought that to them and prosecutor still said,

1060
00:46:06.150 --> 00:46:08.310
 no, we're not gonna charge it.

1061
00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:11.350
 Even though this would have been slammed on case.

1062
00:46:13.250 --> 00:46:14.790
 And that's what happens many times.

1063
00:46:14.930 --> 00:46:16.910
 So you've got well-meaning agents

1064
00:46:16.910 --> 00:46:20.030
 who are trying to protect children in the Epstein case.

1065
00:46:20.790 --> 00:46:22.610
 You know, they had him dead to rights.

1066
00:46:23.530 --> 00:46:27.530
 And then here are prosecutors, politicians stepping in

1067
00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:30.090
 saying, let's hold off on this.

1068
00:46:31.210 --> 00:46:34.830
 Can you, your opinion, I know it's your opinion,

1069
00:46:35.130 --> 00:46:36.490
 but in your opinion based on experience,

1070
00:46:37.470 --> 00:46:40.790
 what would be the reason behind politicians

1071
00:46:41.470 --> 00:46:46.010
 wanting to stave off something as heinous as that,

1072
00:46:46.030 --> 00:46:46.870
 for example?

1073
00:46:49.100 --> 00:46:50.360
 Yeah, there's my opinion.

1074
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.360
 And then there's my wild assumptions.

1075
00:46:53.120 --> 00:46:53.440
 Yeah.

1076
00:46:53.580 --> 00:46:55.340
 I'll just, I'll say this.

1077
00:46:56.260 --> 00:46:58.420
 I texted my buddy this morning

1078
00:46:58.420 --> 00:47:01.200
 who has worked foreign counterintelligence.

1079
00:47:01.720 --> 00:47:06.100
 And I asked him, if you were an agent,

1080
00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:10.020
 if you worked for a foreign government

1081
00:47:10.340 --> 00:47:12.900
 and you had compromised a known pervert

1082
00:47:12.900 --> 00:47:16.240
 who ran sex parties with underage girls,

1083
00:47:16.980 --> 00:47:19.700
 would you have that asset work any differently

1084
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:21.840
 than Jeffrey Epstein did

1085
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:24.940
 with his connections to so many important people?

1086
00:47:26.420 --> 00:47:29.060
 So I'm not a pervert, take my word,

1087
00:47:29.680 --> 00:47:32.380
 but I mean, this guy is inviting people

1088
00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:36.840
 to underage sex parties and they're important people.

1089
00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:41.140
 Why would you do that?

1090
00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:43.120
 I mean, the majority,

1091
00:47:43.560 --> 00:47:46.300
 because I've worked many pedophile cases,

1092
00:47:46.910 --> 00:47:48.760
 they all do it in secret.

1093
00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:49.840
 They don't do it in clubs.

1094
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:52.940
 They don't do it at parties except for this guy.

1095
00:47:54.080 --> 00:47:59.180
 So I can't, if you were gonna be a government asset,

1096
00:47:59.180 --> 00:48:02.780
 I don't see you acting any differently than Epstein.

1097
00:48:03.200 --> 00:48:04.920
 Government asset for you though, right?

1098
00:48:05.700 --> 00:48:06.960
 But it's like, because if you also,

1099
00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:11.340
 I think, and again, I know these are opinions,

1100
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:14.740
 I'm not asking you to say this is definitive,

1101
00:48:14.740 --> 00:48:17.840
 but the deal is, it seems like other countries

1102
00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:20.400
 have taken action with certain individuals in the case

1103
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.560
 and the US still hasn't seemed to have done anything.

1104
00:48:22.700 --> 00:48:24.060
 I mean, we got former Prince Andrew

1105
00:48:24.060 --> 00:48:26.800
 who's under the gun at this moment,

1106
00:48:27.420 --> 00:48:28.580
 stripped of his titles and everything,

1107
00:48:28.600 --> 00:48:32.080
 and then it also led to him being found out

1108
00:48:32.080 --> 00:48:34.680
 to be selling secrets to the Russians

1109
00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:38.420
 as well as Epstein, which is crazy.

1110
00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:40.840
 And then same thing in Qatar that happened.

1111
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.020
 They got rid of, I forgot who it was,

1112
00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:44.460
 but there was somebody else that was high up

1113
00:48:44.460 --> 00:48:45.780
 that when they found out he was in the files,

1114
00:48:45.860 --> 00:48:48.040
 right away they ousted him.

1115
00:48:48.520 --> 00:48:51.320
 And so it seems like the US is the only country

1116
00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.220
 that doesn't seem to wanna take action

1117
00:48:53.220 --> 00:48:55.240
 and it almost makes you wonder like,

1118
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:57.120
 well, was he working for the United States

1119
00:48:57.120 --> 00:49:02.680
 or they just don't wanna reveal the big names,

1120
00:49:02.700 --> 00:49:05.240
 the people high up that were actually literally involved.

1121
00:49:08.110 --> 00:49:11.130
 Yeah, all I can say is I am as frustrated

1122
00:49:11.130 --> 00:49:12.410
 and aggravated as you,

1123
00:49:12.410 --> 00:49:18.160
 and people just don't want to bring justice.

1124
00:49:20.040 --> 00:49:21.960
 It's maybe enough people will speak up,

1125
00:49:22.100 --> 00:49:23.220
 maybe enough pressure will come.

1126
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:24.760
 I don't know.

1127
00:49:25.220 --> 00:49:28.900
 Well, what do you say to those who keep saying,

1128
00:49:30.180 --> 00:49:32.500
 you know, there's no arrest because this takes time.

1129
00:49:34.070 --> 00:49:35.490
 We've had over 20 years.

1130
00:49:35.990 --> 00:49:36.950
 What do you say to that?

1131
00:49:37.110 --> 00:49:41.050
 Yeah, I've had long running cases.

1132
00:49:41.730 --> 00:49:45.350
 The longest case I had was a financial case

1133
00:49:45.350 --> 00:49:46.330
 that went on forever.

1134
00:49:46.730 --> 00:49:48.870
 And I had so many victims say,

1135
00:49:49.030 --> 00:49:50.770
 Eric, this is never gonna go to trial.

1136
00:49:50.890 --> 00:49:52.530
 And I would have told them, it will.

1137
00:49:53.490 --> 00:49:54.670
 You have to believe me.

1138
00:49:55.310 --> 00:49:57.030
 This is just taking too long.

1139
00:49:59.210 --> 00:50:01.490
 And we got a conviction, it was true,

1140
00:50:01.690 --> 00:50:03.150
 but this is different.

1141
00:50:03.390 --> 00:50:08.390
 This isn't, these are people are actively

1142
00:50:09.210 --> 00:50:10.390
 slowing this down.

1143
00:50:11.210 --> 00:50:11.650
 Gotcha.

1144
00:50:12.470 --> 00:50:14.070
 Yeah, I was just thinking because

1145
00:50:14.070 --> 00:50:15.210
 it's not exactly the same,

1146
00:50:15.210 --> 00:50:16.630
 but they definitely went out of their way

1147
00:50:16.630 --> 00:50:19.510
 to convict Diddy a lot quicker than they did Epstein.

1148
00:50:20.110 --> 00:50:22.670
 You know, and they had a much longer investigation.

1149
00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:26.030
 Yeah, that was crazy.

1150
00:50:26.050 --> 00:50:27.390
 That was DHS, I believe.

1151
00:50:27.430 --> 00:50:29.190
 And that one, it's slam dunk.

1152
00:50:29.430 --> 00:50:29.830
 Right?

1153
00:50:30.350 --> 00:50:32.410
 So, you know, I was thinking of that the other day,

1154
00:50:32.490 --> 00:50:33.490
 literally it's like, hold on,

1155
00:50:33.710 --> 00:50:36.130
 over 20 years, and this seemed like a matter

1156
00:50:36.130 --> 00:50:37.330
 of less than a year or so,

1157
00:50:37.350 --> 00:50:38.870
 like also just escalated and it's like,

1158
00:50:38.930 --> 00:50:39.630
 okay, we got the guy.

1159
00:50:39.830 --> 00:50:42.190
 But when we're talking Epstein, it was like,

1160
00:50:42.250 --> 00:50:42.910
 wow, there's nothing there.

1161
00:50:42.930 --> 00:50:44.350
 He didn't kill himself, you know, whatever.

1162
00:50:44.350 --> 00:50:48.110
 All these conspiracies start to come up to the surface.

1163
00:50:49.030 --> 00:50:50.450
 And I don't know how many, you know,

1164
00:50:50.510 --> 00:50:52.890
 sometimes they are true, but it's very interesting.

1165
00:50:53.510 --> 00:50:55.690
 Yeah, Diddy hits TMZ one day

1166
00:50:55.690 --> 00:50:56.750
 and the next day he's arrested.

1167
00:50:57.150 --> 00:50:59.210
 Yeah, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, it's crazy.

1168
00:51:00.130 --> 00:51:02.330
 Well, there's nothing you and I can do about that,

1169
00:51:02.330 --> 00:51:04.090
 but I did want your insight based on being

1170
00:51:04.090 --> 00:51:05.590
 an actual FBI agent and having to deal

1171
00:51:05.590 --> 00:51:07.250
 with those similar types of cases.

1172
00:51:09.450 --> 00:51:11.230
 So let's talk again.

1173
00:51:11.390 --> 00:51:13.150
 Let's go back into your book.

1174
00:51:13.150 --> 00:51:14.670
 What else can we look forward to in your book

1175
00:51:14.670 --> 00:51:17.010
 that maybe, I mean, I'm sure there's a lot

1176
00:51:17.010 --> 00:51:18.370
 you didn't touch on in this conversation.

1177
00:51:18.370 --> 00:51:19.290
 We only have so much time,

1178
00:51:19.310 --> 00:51:21.270
 but what else can people look forward to?

1179
00:51:22.510 --> 00:51:25.110
 Well, so what I did is I went through

1180
00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:27.110
 a little background of how I moved

1181
00:51:27.110 --> 00:51:29.370
 from being a pastor into the FBI.

1182
00:51:29.530 --> 00:51:31.490
 And then through each chapter,

1183
00:51:32.070 --> 00:51:34.230
 I try to tie that in together of,

1184
00:51:34.830 --> 00:51:38.190
 this is how the man I was there played out

1185
00:51:38.190 --> 00:51:40.090
 in some of these investigations.

1186
00:51:40.090 --> 00:51:43.110
 So each chapter I read about an investigation

1187
00:51:43.110 --> 00:51:46.690
 I had or was part of, many of them are very,

1188
00:51:46.690 --> 00:51:47.710
 I think interesting.

1189
00:51:48.170 --> 00:51:50.070
 A couple of them won attorney general's awards.

1190
00:51:50.610 --> 00:51:52.610
 So they were prominent ones.

1191
00:51:53.190 --> 00:51:56.990
 We had arrests of a number of terrorists, mass shooters.

1192
00:51:58.410 --> 00:52:00.230
 And in the telling of the story,

1193
00:52:00.270 --> 00:52:01.990
 which gives people a little insight

1194
00:52:01.990 --> 00:52:03.590
 on this is how a case runs.

1195
00:52:04.070 --> 00:52:06.070
 This is how people are scrambling

1196
00:52:06.070 --> 00:52:08.210
 to get things done last minute sometimes.

1197
00:52:08.790 --> 00:52:12.390
 And then what I put in following each chapter

1198
00:52:12.390 --> 00:52:14.930
 is an after action report,

1199
00:52:15.230 --> 00:52:18.190
 which is common to military and law enforcement.

1200
00:52:18.830 --> 00:52:20.210
 Let's sit down and talk about,

1201
00:52:20.410 --> 00:52:21.610
 what did we do right here?

1202
00:52:22.030 --> 00:52:22.870
 What do we need to keep?

1203
00:52:22.930 --> 00:52:23.730
 What did we learn?

1204
00:52:24.190 --> 00:52:25.630
 What should we do differently?

1205
00:52:26.350 --> 00:52:28.570
 And so for each investigation I have,

1206
00:52:29.010 --> 00:52:30.770
 hey, this is how we caught this pimp

1207
00:52:30.770 --> 00:52:33.370
 who was trafficking a 15 year old girl.

1208
00:52:33.990 --> 00:52:35.430
 This is the crazy story

1209
00:52:35.430 --> 00:52:38.710
 about how we finally arrested him right before Easter.

1210
00:52:39.270 --> 00:52:41.490
 And then here's some lessons learned,

1211
00:52:41.790 --> 00:52:46.330
 maybe a couple of vignettes of similar arrests of pimps.

1212
00:52:46.690 --> 00:52:50.950
 This is how this happened and what we did successfully.

1213
00:52:51.610 --> 00:52:52.850
 This is how we screwed up.

1214
00:52:53.250 --> 00:52:55.810
 This is why I was able to get a confession

1215
00:52:55.810 --> 00:52:59.190
 from this other pimp's girlfriend along the way

1216
00:52:59.190 --> 00:53:00.390
 and why it worked.

1217
00:53:01.290 --> 00:53:03.950
 So I think for me,

1218
00:53:03.950 --> 00:53:05.930
 I know that as FBI agents,

1219
00:53:06.130 --> 00:53:08.330
 if we're sitting around after an op

1220
00:53:08.330 --> 00:53:09.770
 and things have cleared out

1221
00:53:09.770 --> 00:53:11.670
 or waiting for a dope dealer to show up

1222
00:53:11.670 --> 00:53:13.390
 and they're always late and slow,

1223
00:53:13.970 --> 00:53:15.510
 guys just start telling stories.

1224
00:53:17.270 --> 00:53:21.030
 And I've never lost the awe of being in the FBI

1225
00:53:21.610 --> 00:53:24.750
 where we tell these stories and everybody chuckles

1226
00:53:24.750 --> 00:53:26.390
 and goes, yeah, I remember that one.

1227
00:53:26.730 --> 00:53:31.610
 And then I think that story is actually pretty amazing

1228
00:53:31.610 --> 00:53:34.610
 about how this kid jumped out of a second story window

1229
00:53:34.610 --> 00:53:36.430
 and then his younger brother jumped after him,

1230
00:53:36.430 --> 00:53:38.450
 even though he didn't have a warrant and he broke his back

1231
00:53:38.450 --> 00:53:40.310
 and then we arrested him.

1232
00:53:41.610 --> 00:53:44.170
 But the number of things that you get out there

1233
00:53:44.170 --> 00:53:48.090
 and experience and seeing parts of society

1234
00:53:48.090 --> 00:53:49.490
 that people walk past

1235
00:53:49.490 --> 00:53:51.910
 but don't know what's going on behind the scenes,

1236
00:53:54.270 --> 00:53:56.190
 I think that's a remarkable insight

1237
00:53:56.890 --> 00:53:58.830
 and I think I tell a good story

1238
00:53:58.830 --> 00:54:00.590
 that's funny too along the way.

1239
00:54:01.690 --> 00:54:02.710
 I'm sure you do.

1240
00:54:02.910 --> 00:54:04.050
 Well, I look forward to it.

1241
00:54:04.390 --> 00:54:05.490
 I'm gonna have to read it.

1242
00:54:05.490 --> 00:54:06.010
 I'm intrigued.

1243
00:54:06.450 --> 00:54:07.050
 I'm intrigued.

1244
00:54:08.010 --> 00:54:10.050
 Let's do this, Eric.

1245
00:54:11.830 --> 00:54:13.190
 I wanna know this.

1246
00:54:13.730 --> 00:54:15.430
 When is it actually coming out?

1247
00:54:15.530 --> 00:54:16.110
 That's the question

1248
00:54:16.110 --> 00:54:17.930
 because I thought you were still working on it.

1249
00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:18.850
 Has it been finished?

1250
00:54:18.870 --> 00:54:19.570
 Is it finalized?

1251
00:54:20.390 --> 00:54:21.290
 Well, two things.

1252
00:54:21.390 --> 00:54:24.710
 One is the FBI has to review it

1253
00:54:24.710 --> 00:54:26.770
 and make sure I didn't put any classified stuff in there

1254
00:54:26.770 --> 00:54:29.250
 which I knew they would, so I didn't.

1255
00:54:31.770 --> 00:54:34.230
 And then my wife owns a company

1256
00:54:34.230 --> 00:54:36.230
 that markets and publishes books

1257
00:54:36.230 --> 00:54:37.190
 and she's the one who said,

1258
00:54:37.190 --> 00:54:38.150
 oh, you should write a book.

1259
00:54:38.190 --> 00:54:40.790
 And I said, yeah, but I didn't write things down

1260
00:54:40.790 --> 00:54:41.910
 and I'll forget stuff.

1261
00:54:42.190 --> 00:54:43.670
 And I just one day sat down

1262
00:54:43.670 --> 00:54:45.870
 and all the stories came back

1263
00:54:45.870 --> 00:54:47.630
 like I was sitting in the back of an armored bear cat.

1264
00:54:48.590 --> 00:54:50.510
 So we'll go through that process.

1265
00:54:50.990 --> 00:54:53.910
 She tells me it'll be in the fall

1266
00:54:54.450 --> 00:54:55.930
 because a couple of other authors

1267
00:54:55.930 --> 00:54:57.610
 have jumped the headline for me

1268
00:54:57.610 --> 00:54:59.730
 but we'll have it coming out in the fall.

1269
00:55:00.210 --> 00:55:03.610
 The working title I have right now is irreverent

1270
00:55:03.610 --> 00:55:06.210
 because I was irreverent

1271
00:55:06.210 --> 00:55:09.030
 and much of the things we did were irreverent.

1272
00:55:10.550 --> 00:55:12.930
 The initial title we had was preacher to breacher

1273
00:55:12.930 --> 00:55:14.690
 and I still kinda like that one too.

1274
00:55:15.930 --> 00:55:16.830
 That was a good one.

1275
00:55:17.470 --> 00:55:20.130
 Okay, so where can we get updates outside of,

1276
00:55:20.250 --> 00:55:22.150
 I believe you have Instagram, of course.

1277
00:55:22.170 --> 00:55:24.050
 You have any other social media out there?

1278
00:55:24.570 --> 00:55:25.510
 Just LinkedIn.

1279
00:55:25.510 --> 00:55:28.970
 And then we've got to set my website.

1280
00:55:29.250 --> 00:55:33.470
 When that goes live, I'll promote this podcast

1281
00:55:33.470 --> 00:55:35.070
 and we'll link to that too.

1282
00:55:35.450 --> 00:55:37.330
 And if you guys have any great ideas

1283
00:55:37.330 --> 00:55:40.950
 for what a good website URL would be, I'm open to that.

1284
00:55:41.610 --> 00:55:43.070
 Sure, we're gonna make sure people

1285
00:55:43.070 --> 00:55:44.390
 are pointed to your Instagram

1286
00:55:44.390 --> 00:55:45.790
 to stay up to date on all of this.

1287
00:55:47.410 --> 00:55:49.430
 I literally do wanna keep in touch with you though.

1288
00:55:49.730 --> 00:55:51.310
 I think that if you're willing,

1289
00:55:51.390 --> 00:55:53.650
 no, if you're willing, I'd like to have you back on

1290
00:55:53.650 --> 00:55:57.270
 to get your assessment on things in real time

1291
00:55:57.270 --> 00:56:00.790
 as they happen as in terms of what's going on in the world

1292
00:56:01.450 --> 00:56:02.890
 because you have that background experience.

1293
00:56:02.890 --> 00:56:05.770
 So I think that your insight would be valuable

1294
00:56:06.270 --> 00:56:07.530
 and people do wanna hear it.

1295
00:56:07.610 --> 00:56:09.230
 I mean, I like this, honestly,

1296
00:56:09.250 --> 00:56:10.030
 I love this conversation.

1297
00:56:10.070 --> 00:56:12.850
 This was great and I do wanna have you back.

1298
00:56:13.110 --> 00:56:14.510
 So let's do, please stay in touch.

1299
00:56:14.590 --> 00:56:17.370
 And by all means, when your book is out,

1300
00:56:17.570 --> 00:56:19.950
 just let me know and maybe we can have a discussion

1301
00:56:19.950 --> 00:56:22.650
 about that as well to get that out there.

1302
00:56:22.650 --> 00:56:25.930
 But this was a good conversation.

1303
00:56:26.070 --> 00:56:28.130
 I hope that you enjoy the conversation.

1304
00:56:28.310 --> 00:56:29.570
 I know I asked a few things

1305
00:56:29.570 --> 00:56:31.810
 that may not have been in line with what you wanted,

1306
00:56:31.830 --> 00:56:35.490
 but I figured I'd take advantage of your experience

1307
00:56:35.490 --> 00:56:36.990
 and get some answers.

1308
00:56:37.570 --> 00:56:38.190
 George, I'm retired.

1309
00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:39.110
 What else I'm gonna do?

1310
00:56:40.830 --> 00:56:41.630
 Fair enough.

1311
00:56:42.550 --> 00:56:45.050
 All right, Eric, we're gonna sign off for now.

1312
00:56:46.150 --> 00:56:47.730
 And you and I, again, we're gonna stay in touch

1313
00:56:47.730 --> 00:56:49.690
 and I appreciate your time, I really do.

1314
00:56:50.170 --> 00:56:51.490
 Absolutely, thank you so much.

1315
00:56:51.490 --> 00:56:52.950
 Thank you.

1316
00:56:53.550 --> 00:56:56.010
 Devils hide behind redemption.

1317
00:56:56.650 --> 00:56:59.830
 Honesty is a one-way gate to hell.